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      • 300. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...
        brentbolton

        Hi Ed,

         

        I don't think you're really paying attention to what's being said here. Adopting a business model that successfully works for you but not your users is pointless. There are many other business models that would let you pour more resources into development while not shafting your user base. For instance, the unbundling model where you charge basically the same price for a version that has essentially the v7.x features, and then premiums over that for versions with more advanced features. Further, it's not really about the price. You have competitors that offer perpetual licenses at certain price points. That will force you to always charge a "reasonable" price set by the market. So I'm not worried about that. What I am worried about is my business being held hostage by Autodesk. For example, I have a many projects that I've done sitting "in the can" in case a customer comes back and wants some variant of one. Say, a few years from now there's some fantastic new CAD package that all my new customers are demanding. I switch to that and now I only need Eagle for that legacy work occasionally. But now I've got to keep paying Autodesk for their continuing improvements that I will never need. Further, the phone home to a server every 2 weeks feature gives me the willies. I don't want to have to depend on the existence of any computer other than my own when my income is riding on it working. Sorry, but your business model carries too much risk for my taste, so as I've said many times, no thanks.

         

        Brent

        • 301. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...
          roycearnold

          Brent,

           

          100% agree.

           

          I'm in a similar situation as you.  Existing design that have to be maintained for years.  In fact, I have a couple of old OrCAD designs (10+ years old) that I still have to maintain on an infrequent basis (maybe once every year or two).  I have an ancient copy of OrCAD sitting in a Windows 2000 VM just to manage those designs.  Operating right next it is the software development package that can no longer be activated because the company is no longer around (well they are but have changed hands and no longer offer any support).  I'm only still able to use the later because I got it into a VM while I could still get it activated.  Both packages are dead for me as far as new designs are concerned, but still have value to support the existing design.  If they were under the new AutoDesk subscription model, I would have to pay access either.

           

           

          Royce

          • 302. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...
            brentbolton

            Thanks Royce,

             

            I'm sure we not the only ones. I used to work in technical marketing for a semiconductor company. Our departments job was to ask our customers what they wanted and then do our best to make sure the company gave it to them. That company is now 100 times or more the size of Autodesk. I hope someone from their executive suite is getting this feedback. If they don't learn the lesson that you always need to put the customer first, the company is doomed to failure or perpetual mediocrity.

             

            Brent

            • 303. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...
              Jan Cumps

              Brent Bolton wrote:

               

              Thanks Royce,

               

              I'm sure we not the only ones. I used to work in technical marketing for a semiconductor company. Our departments job was to ask our customers what they wanted and then do our best to make sure the company gave it to them. That company is now 100 times or more the size of Autodesk. I hope someone from their executive suite is getting this feedback. If they don't learn the lesson that you always need to put the customer first, the company is doomed to failure or perpetual mediocrity.

               

              Brent

              You will have listened to the customers to give them the product they needed. I bet you didn't let them dictate your pricing policy.

              • 304. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...
                drkirkby

                Brent Bolton wrote:


                Thank you for confirming what I and many others on this forum suspected. The new license model is all about what's best for Autodesk, not what's best for us users. That comes across as a giant F*** You to this formerly loyal EagleCAD user. KiCAD, Altium, here I come.

                 

                Brent

                Ultimately any companies main aim is to make money, so attempting to maximise the revenue is to be expected. Companies will not make money unless they have a product or service to sell. Generally speaking, software costs money to develop. Even KiCad, despite being open-source, is not developed for free. There are a number of paid developers, with CERN putting in a lot of money, but one can donate too.

                 

                https://giving.web.cern.ch/civicrm/contribute/transact?reset=1&id=6&gclid=CjwKEAiArbrFBRDL4Oiz97GP2nISJAAmJMFaR4C71dl9C_…

                 

                (I'm a bit skeptical of donating my companies money. I think that might give me tax issues here in the UK. I guess it would have to be a personal donation).

                 

                Based on that, to donate a days KiCad developer time, you need to donate 480 Swiss Francs CHF), which given the exchange rate is almost 1 USD = 1 CHF, it is $480 USD. Sure there will be some developers who are unpaid, but given all the comments about KiCad improving dramatically since CERN started putting money into it, one can probably conclude that the software improved because of the paid developers.

                 

                Ultimately, if you don't like a license model, then walk away. There are plenty of options. Someone I know finds Sprint very good, and worth the $50 or so. He prefers it to KiCad.

                 

                As for Rachel's comments about Autodesk having multiple servers, so even earthquakes will not cause problems checking out a license, I think there are more serious risks than earthquakes.

                 

                * As I noted earlier, a Barings Bank that had been trading for over 300 years was bankrupted by one single employee. The same could happen to Autodesk.

                * Autodesk could just decide to discontinue the product.

                * All many of other reasons.

                 

                 

                 

                Dave

                • 305. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .
                  CadSoft Guest

                  David Kirkby wrote on Thu, 23 February 2017 15:52

                  • As I noted earlier, a Barings Bank that had been trading for over 300

                  years was bankrupted by one single employee. The same could happen to

                  Autodesk.

                  • Autodesk could just decide to discontinue the product.

                   

                   

                  One of the nice things about the EAGLE file format (since version 6 at

                  least) is that it is easy to read.  I've already written a program that

                  opens an EAGLE file, reads it and can parse the XML.  (I even posted a

                  couple of my early experiments

                  http://www.eaglecentral.ca/index.php/m/156145/6f8dbdb16391f7c28db5b12f3dbae997/?srch=python#msg_156145.)

                  If anything happens to EAGLE or Autodesk, we'll still be able to access

                  our EAGLE files, if only to convert them to some other package.

                  --

                  EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

                   

                  1 of 1 people found this helpful
                  • 306. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...
                    CadSoft Guest

                    On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 00:29:12 +0100, Markus Rudolf

                    <markus.rudolf@mpic.de> wrote:

                     

                     

                    Ah wait.... Democracy has issues in the US recently...

                     

                    Can't let this one slip by.  Since the US is a represenative republic

                    and (thank God) NOT a democracy, your attempt at sarcasm only shows

                    your ignorance of our system of government.  A democracy is 4 wolves

                    and a sheep voting on what's for supper.

                     

                    John

                     

                    John DeArmond

                    http://www.neon-john.com

                    http://www.tnduction.com

                    Tellico Plains, Occupied TN

                    See website for email address

                     

                     

                    • 307. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...
                      brentbolton

                      Jan,

                       

                      No the customers didn't dictate our pricing. In the semiconductor industry price constantly declines while capability increases. And no company will shut down your chip after 3 years if you didn't keep paying up. And little of our business was due to product wearing out. It was almost all voluntary upgrades or new purchases because we constantly improved our value proposition.

                       

                      This will be my last post beating the dead Autodesk horse. I've got to go do some design work with v7.5 and think about who my next CAD vendor will be. Nice debating you all and best wishes to you whatever you decide.


                      Brent

                      • 308. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...
                        mcb1

                        Are you a pensioner? A lady or man?

                        I think you should change and keep him happy.

                         

                        What sort of question is that ...?

                        2 of 2 people found this helpful
                        • 310. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...
                          mcb1

                          Sorry I'm failing to see a connection between you asking rachaelp a very strange question, and a moon landing.

                          • 311. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...
                            geralds

                            "May the force be with you!"

                             

                            ---

                            • 312. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...
                              Ed Robledo

                              Hi Brent,

                              'snip

                              What I am worried about is my business being held hostage by Autodesk. For example, I have a many projects that I've done sitting "in the can" in case a customer comes back and wants some variant of one. Say, a few years from now there's some fantastic new CAD package that all my new customers are demanding. I switch to that and now I only need Eagle for that legacy work occasionally. But now I've got to keep paying Autodesk for their continuing improvements that I will never need. Further, the phone home to a server every 2 weeks feature gives me the willies. I don't want to have to depend on the existence of any computer other than my own when my income is riding on it working. Sorry, but your business model carries too much risk for my taste, so as I've said many times, no thanks.

                               

                              Brent

                              With the current model, you don't have to be paying continuously, during your idle times you can use the free version as a viewer.  If you need to do some legacy work, then enable your license entitlement for the necessary time.  If you want the latest tools you can download and install, if you don't want the new tools continue working with whatever version you have.  Updates are not pushed, the user is only informed about them.  If you do download load them they will install into new folder, not affecting any previous versions installs.

                               

                              TMI:  "I have a many projects that I've done sitting "in the can"

                               

                              Best Regards,

                              Ed

                              EAGLE Forums

                              1 of 1 people found this helpful
                              • 313. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...
                                albertovignati

                                Hi Ed,

                                 

                                Brent talks about risks (I totally agree with him) and you answer about

                                costs. On the economic side you are saying to pay for use an old version

                                to maintain old projects, right? This is another reason for which

                                subscription model is absolutely inacceptable!

                                On the economic side, if V8 were perpetual I would just upgraded, even

                                at the full price... But it seems that you do not want my money and

                                prefere to make me angry.

                                I am sure you understand perfectly our reason, I can imagine your

                                position, but you have to do your job. I (We) will fight for a while,

                                maybe something changes, but one day I (we) will have to take a decision

                                and, if nothing change, this means to leave Eagle. At the moment I am

                                using Eagle only for maintenance or little projects, as a big project

                                will start I will move to other tools; at that point no way to come

                                back. It is a pity, since I am a long term user and I have not other

                                reason to change except license model.

                                 

                                Best regards

                                 

                                Alberto

                                 

                                Il 24/02/2017 16:49, Ed Robledo ha scritto:

                                Hi Brent,

                                'snip

                                What I am worried about is my business being held hostage by Autodesk. For example, I have a many projects that I've done sitting "in the can" in case a customer comes back and wants some variant of one. Say, a few years from now there's some fantastic new CAD package that all my new customers are demanding. I switch to that and now I only need Eagle for that legacy work occasionally. But now I've got to keep paying Autodesk for their continuing improvements that I will never need. Further, the phone home to a server every 2 weeks feature gives me the willies. I don't want to have to depend on the existence of any computer other than my own when my income is riding on it working. Sorry, but your business model carries too much risk for my taste, so as I've said many times, no thanks.

                                 

                                Brent

                                With the current model, you don't have to be paying continuously, during your idle times you can use the free version as a viewer.  If you need to do some legacy work, then enable your license entitlement for the necessary time.  If you want the latest tools you can download and install, if you don't want the new tools continue working with whatever version you have.  Updates are not pushed, the user is only informed about them.  If you do download load them they will install into new folder, not affecting any previous versions installs.

                                 

                                TMI:  "I have a many projects that I've done sitting "in the can"

                                 

                                Best Regards,

                                Ed

                                EAGLE Forums (https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/bd-p/3500http://)

                                 

                                --

                                To view any images and attachments in this post, visit:

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                                • 314. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...
                                  CadSoft Guest

                                  On 2/23/2017 2:53 AM, Morten Leikvoll wrote:

                                  Let us know if there's anything  we can do for you.

                                   

                                  I could list a few, like comfort me, tell me why I should spend this

                                  money (or actually open the flow of money for an unknown period of time)

                                  when I already have v7. [The "already have v7 is important here] It will

                                  be a very expensive modular design block and soon obstacle avoidance

                                  (wich is cool, but not that important to me).

                                   

                                  Hey Morten,

                                   

                                  The reality is that it's your money, so don't feel like you have to part

                                  ways with it now if you are not fully convinced that it is going to be

                                  worth it.

                                   

                                  I see that so far the new features still aren't enough for you and

                                  that's cool. EAGLE's pace of development has increased greatly and it's

                                  not going to take a long time to get the features that have been

                                  promised in.

                                   

                                  Like I mentioned on the Autodesk Forums, it is now up to us to earn the

                                  business of our customers by improving EAGLE and adding features that

                                  will compel you to go subscription. That is our goal, and for whatever

                                  it's worth, despite the licensing change, I see EAGLE finally growing

                                  and getting the development that it has long deserved.

                                   

                                  The next few months are going to be interesting, and since you'll be

                                  checking in you'll be seeing it.

                                   

                                  Hang tight and as always let me know if there's anything else I can do

                                  for you.

                                   

                                  Best Regards,

                                  Jorge Garcia

                                   

                                   

                                   

                                  --

                                  We have a new forum here <http://forums.autodesk.com>

                                   

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