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      • 330. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...
        KE5FX

        On 2/23/2017 9:29 AM, Jorge Garcia wrote:

        I hope you're having a good day. Autodesk is not giving up on EAGLE at

        all, that's why so much work . However Autodesk has almost 3 million

        subscribers of their software, so they have demonstrated that the model

        works and that there are a lot of customers who like the model.

         

         

        Question for you (or anyone else who knows) -- how many other Autodesk

        products, besides EAGLE, use a product-specific file format (whether

        documented or not) that no other industry-standard tools are compatible

        with?

         

        In other words, how many of those 3 million customers are being held

        hostage by Autodesk the way EAGLE users are now, with no alternative but

        to continue their subscriptions if they want to keep doing business...

        and with no assurance that they'll be able to install and use the

        software over the next several years at any price?

         

        -- john

         

        • 331. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...
          dukepro

          On 01/18/2017 02:26 PM, Matt Berggren wrote:

          Hi All --

           

          Moving this to a separate thread so it doesn't get lost in the ether.  Here's my two cents on licensing and I'd love your feedback:

           

          Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription

          ...

           

          Matt,

           

          Do you think it would be reasonable to escrow the software build kit

          (source, compilers, builders, etc.) of each release, such that it be

          released under GPL or LPGL should certain circumstances arrive,

          circumstances such as some of those that have been aired in this

          thread?  However remote the possibility of such conditions, an escrow

          would nonetheless be sort of a life insurance policy for Eagle.

           

          Doing so may allay many of the hostage fears, and would present a path

          forward for customers should Autodesk decide to drop Eagle.  This would

          allow an open source group to take over maintenance and development.

           

          I also ponder how many, if any, of those that are currently "no-go"

          would reconsider if this were done.

           

          Just a thought...

           

              - Chuck

           

           

          • 332. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...
            rbtx99

            Chuck Huber wrote:

             

            On 01/18/2017 02:26 PM, Matt Berggren wrote:

            Hi All --

             

            Moving this to a separate thread so it doesn't get lost in the ether. Here's my two cents on licensing and I'd love your feedback:

             

            Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription

            ...

             

            Matt,

             

            Do you think it would be reasonable to escrow the software build kit

            (source, compilers, builders, etc.) of each release, such that it be

            released under GPL or LPGL should certain circumstances arrive,

            circumstances such as some of those that have been aired in this

            thread? However remote the possibility of such conditions, an escrow

            would nonetheless be sort of a life insurance policy for Eagle.

             

            Doing so may allay many of the hostage fears, and would present a path

            forward for customers should Autodesk decide to drop Eagle. This would

            allow an open source group to take over maintenance and development.

             

            I also ponder how many, if any, of those that are currently "no-go"

            would reconsider if this were done.

             

            Just a thought...

             

            - Chuck

             

             

             

            First of all I doubt they would want to do that. There is a £200 product that I discontinued and subsequently I was able to get more than £50K additional work to just customise it for a customer. IP always has value even when you discontinue the product. There is always someone who needs it, you just need to find each other.

             

            Secondly, the escrow may not be able to act if Autodesk declares they still have interest in the IP, etc. Even if that takes few months to resolve it can have a huge effect to our business. What do I tell my customers? "You just need to wait until someone kind enough finds how to remove the license managers and recompile EAGLE from sources, then we can work on your project". We need EAGLE ready to run, every single day.

            • 333. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...
              drkirkby

              Chuck Huber wrote:

               

              On 01/18/2017 02:26 PM, Matt Berggren wrote:

              Hi All --

               

              Moving this to a separate thread so it doesn't get lost in the ether. Here's my two cents on licensing and I'd love your feedback:

               

              Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription

              ...

               

              Matt,

               

              Do you think it would be reasonable to escrow the software build kit

              (source, compilers, builders, etc.) of each release, such that it be

              released under GPL or LPGL should certain circumstances arrive,

              circumstances such as some of those that have been aired in this

              thread?

              Just a thought...

               

              - Chuck

              I don't think that would happen, as someone else said.

               

              Sun Microsystems decided to release the source code for Solaris, which was really good I felt. But there were bits they had to withhold, as these were licensed from third parties. So OpenSolaris

               

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenSolaris

               

              was released, with some differences from the official Solaris. I still run OpenSoaris  to this say as my main operating system - I'm typing on it now.

               

              drkirkby@hawk:~$ cat /etc/release

                                     OpenSolaris Development snv_134 X86

                         Copyright 2010 Sun Microsystems, Inc.  All Rights Reserved.

                                      Use is subject to license terms.

                                           Assembled 01 March 2010

               

              Unfortunately Sun was bought by Oracle, who made no more public releases. There are a number of forks of OpenSolaris in existence though.

               

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenIndiana

               

              It would not surprise me if Autodesk had similar problems, so could not realise the code under the GPL even if they wanted to - which I doubt they would anyway.

               

              There are a number of Eagle -> KiCad converters around

               

              Eagle to KiCad made easy | Hackaday

              https://github.com/lachlanA/eagle-to-kicad-libs

               

              but I get the feeling none are perfect. But I believe there will be a new impetus for that now. You only have to look on the KiCad forums, and see a number of recent posts (Jan or Fed 2017) about such converters.

               

              One was announced 21 days ago

              https://forum.kicad.info/t/eagle-to-kicad-library-converter/5206

               

              Others

              https://forum.kicad.info/t/can-you-import-a-schematic-from-eaglecad/543

               

              The second post down here is interesting

              https://forum.kicad.info/t/autodesk-kills-the-golden-eagle/4964

               

              https://forum.kicad.info/t/error-with-converted-eagle-symbol-library/5305

               

              Realistically, you are likely to find far more success moving to an open-source project now, than waiting around to see if Autodesk release the source for Eagle.

               

              It would be interesting to know whether KiCad or Eagle are getting the most man-hours spent on the development now. Clearly Autodesk are spending money on Eagle development, but CERN are on KiCad development. Maybe Eagle will improve faster than KiCad, or maybe it will be the other way - I have no idea. I can't imagine there are any KiCad users going to be switching to Eagle, whereas there are a number of Eagle users switching to KiCad, so my guess is that KiCad development will speed up, and Eagle development slow. But as I say, I don't know for sure.

               

              Dave

              1 of 1 people found this helpful
              • 334. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...
                macegr

                Put the source code in escrow? This would all hinge upon taking Autodesk at their word; that they've put it in escrow, that they've put enough of it in escrow in order to compile a functional application, that the licensing of the material in escrow is permissive enough, etc. And the escrow service itself has to be reliable over many years.

                 

                Other solutions don't depend on Autodesk's shaky record of keeping promises. Other solutions either have the code available up front or give you a license that will run eternally as long as you have a compatible operating system.

                • 335. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...
                  dukepro

                  On 02/27/2017 11:54 AM, Garrett Mace wrote:

                  Put the source code in escrow? This would all hinge upon taking Autodesk at their word; that they've put it in escrow,

                   

                  Well, sort of.  I've done this in past lives back in the '80s.  The

                  escrow was held by an attorney.  On each release, the attorney would

                  receive the package from the author, and hire an independent expert to

                  verify that the package could be built.  It's really not that big of a

                  deal to for someone to come in once or twice a year to do the verification.

                   

                  And the escrow service itself has to be reliable over many years.

                   

                  True.

                   

                  Other solutions don't depend on Autodesk's shaky record of keeping promises.

                   

                  From the responses so far, it doesn't look like having an escrow would

                  bring "no-go" customers back.

                   

                  As for myself, I have two primary objections: The cost, and the

                  requirement to be beholden to a) another company, and b) a server on the

                  Internet.  There are portions of my ECAD and MCAD work that need to be

                  done on a computer that never connects to the Internet.  This is also

                  why I don't use Inventor.  I believe that Eagle solutions for this are

                  not forthcoming.

                   

                  And, no, an escrow of source code would not have satisfied my requirements.

                   

                  I'd like to hear back from Matt to see if Autodesk is in any way flexible.

                   

                  Best regards,

                      - Chuck

                   

                   

                  • 336. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...
                    CadSoft Guest

                    On 27.02.2017 21:42, Chuck Huber wrote:

                    I'd like to hear back from Matt to see if Autodesk is in any way flexible.

                     

                    A company with 10000 employees and flexible... Yeah sure... But they may

                    prove me wrong....

                     

                    Markus

                     

                     

                    • 337. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...
                      CadSoft Guest

                      On 27.02.2017 21:42, Chuck Huber wrote:

                      I'd like to hear back from Matt to see if Autodesk is in any way flexible.

                       

                      A company with 10000 employees and flexible... Yeah sure... But they may

                      prove me wrong....

                       

                      Markus

                       

                       

                      • 338. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...
                        CadSoft Guest

                        Am 22.02.2017 um 12:50 schrieb rachaelp:

                        I'm sure Autodesk has plenty of servers spread around the world

                         

                        https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/03/01/aws_s3_outage/ :

                         

                        Tuesday's Amazon Web Services mega-outage knocked offline not only websites big and small, by yanking away their backend storage,

                        , Autodesk's cloud,  

                         

                        But hey, it was only five hours.  And maybe you couldn't use Eagle

                        anyway then because you have a Razer mouse:

                        https://www.reddit.com/r/razer/comments/5wpk3l/cant_connect_to_razer_synapse/

                         

                         

                        (Thanks to fefe! https://blog.fefe.de/?ts=a64851a1 )

                         

                        Hans

                         

                         

                         

                         

                         

                        • 340. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .
                          CadSoft Guest

                          Just got a contact from Altium, starting with, "You are in a rush to modify

                          your PCB.  So, you start EAGLE and then this happens..."  and then a

                          picture of the "Oops, an error occurred" Autodesk dialog.

                           

                          Then, the interesting part, "Move to Altium Designer and we will give you

                          back what you paid for your EAGLE license!"

                           

                          --

                          EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

                           

                          • 341. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .
                            macegr

                            It's going to work, too. The only reason you don't often see competitors in the same business doing this sort of adversarial marketing: usually companies don't aim a crew-served .50 at their own feet and hold down the trigger.

                            • 342. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .
                              sauerwald

                              Altium is not a cure-all.

                               

                              I use both Eagle and Altium.   When using Altium my employer has a license server where I have to grab a license to use the program.  If I am away from an internet connection and don't have an active license, I am S.O.L,  Sometimes I will be working with a schematic only license, and then need to use the layout tool - and that can also be a PITA.

                               

                              Altium is a fine environment, and does some things far better than Eagle.  Eagle has it's advantages too, and there are times when it is the best tool for the job, but neither one ticks all the boxes.

                               

                              I do lament the change in licensing structure, and I hope that it will change.  For the forseeable future, I'll continue working in Eagle (7.5) as well as Altium.

                               

                              Mark

                              • 343. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .
                                drkirkby

                                CadSoft Guest wrote:

                                 

                                Just got a contact from Altium, starting with, "You are in a rush to modify

                                your PCB. So, you start EAGLE and then this happens..." and then a

                                picture of the "Oops, an error occurred" Autodesk dialog.

                                 

                                Then, the interesting part, "Move to Altium Designer and we will give you

                                back what you paid for your EAGLE license!"

                                 

                                --

                                EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

                                 

                                Competition in a marketplace is usually a good thing, and it seems the Autodesk has created a bit more competition.

                                 

                                I don't suppose Altium made a serious attempt to attract Eagle customers before, as they knew there was a significant price difference. But Autodesk have introduced a "feature" which Altrium see as something they can exploit.

                                 

                                 

                                It is interesting to see the number of people joining the KiCad forum very recently. This post by hippo

                                 

                                 

                                about converting Eagle files to KiCad was made by someone who joined only one day ago. Although it appears he is already running 8.0.

                                 

                                https://forum.kicad.info/t/import-project-from-eagle/5517

                                 

                                I don't think that is a coincidence.

                                 

                                Dave

                                • 344. Re: Eagle v8 licensing..   .
                                  CadSoft Guest

                                  Mark Sauerwald wrote on Wed, 01 March 2017 15:54

                                  Altium is a fine environment, and does some things far better than

                                  Eagle.

                                   

                                  Yes, there is a reason they use Altium at my day job and would never

                                  consider EAGLE.

                                   

                                  Quote:

                                  Eagle has it's advantages too, and there are times when it is the best

                                  tool for the job, but neither one ticks all the boxes.

                                   

                                  Agreed.  I tried to do a tiny board in Altium Designer, and just kept

                                  thinking I was using a bazooka to hit a tsetse fly...

                                   

                                  Quote:

                                  I do lament the change in licensing structure, and I hope that it will

                                  change.

                                   

                                  I'm a skeptic; I too prefer the old license, but doubt it will change.  In

                                  a bittersweet decision, our diy music devices group decided to remove all

                                  eagle files from their web sites.  I'm now converting my designs to KiCad

                                  (and Circuit Studio)...

                                  --

                                  EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

                                   

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