53 Replies Latest reply on Sep 3, 2013 2:13 PM by morgaine

    first mention of twins

        • Re: first mention of twins
          jamodio

          Interesting ... Anyway, the only way to make the Rpi better is to drop the current SoC, which means completely design a new Rpi.

           

          -J

          • Re: first mention of twins
            sheldon bailey

            ill try keep this nice.

             

            i think the whole hype about Rpi being the big bad educational tool was nothing more than a pr stunt to get it selling quick, and that is just what happened. i also remember hearing somthing about this being developed by employees of broadcom, when it was first released the soc data sheet required a nondisclosure agreement, so right out of the gate there were problems calling it open source.

             

            i'm sorry if i dont get the idea about teaching computer science with an embeded linux board. don't comp sci cources use full-blown computers already? and if you really want to learn about how computers work, it is much better to start with an 8051 or 8088 and assembly.

             

            but now it seems the more i read, the more i can't suggest the pi for any use other than a media center.

             

            anyways thats my two bits on the the pi.

              • Re: first mention of twins
                7point62

                Fair points well made Sheldon - here in the UK I feel that issues with computer science education are far more the fault of decision makers within government and the education system than with a lack of availability of suitable hardware. Arduino is an ideal tool for getting started in programming and interfacing, for instance. It's robust, well documented, low in baggage and has been around for ages.

                 

                Perhaps if there ever is some kind of backlash against the concept of starting a charity and tossing the word "education" around simply as a sales pitch then I imagine that Broadcom might want to distance themselves from the project. However, so long as it's cheap the overwhelming majority of users probably won't trouble themselves with ethical whatnot.

                 

                Horsemeat lasagne, anyone?

                  • Re: first mention of twins
                    shabaz

                    I jon't want to distract from the main topic, but personally I think the govt in the UK needs to find a way to get free Internet access to kids - the ongoing monthly cost is not affordable by many parents, whereas saving up £50-£100 or so for an old laptop is feasible. It's pretty hard to learn any language (or indeed many subjects, since libraries are closing) without the communities and knowledge bases available online. If the RPI team were to help get pressure to find a way to have some level of free internet (e.g. mandate councils to provide WiFi access - since many are stockpiling cash) to families, then that would be something positive they could do for education, without creating any hardware.

                    • Re: first mention of twins
                      sheldon bailey

                      words are definately tossed around without thought, or intended to decieve.

                       

                      education has all to often become nothing more than workforce training(brainwashing). i was going to say more about education socialism, but thats not why i am here.

                       

                      I have a list of buzzwords that make me skeptical of anything. among the top of the list and some my reasoning.

                       

                      non-profit - if $ is involved it is usually for profit

                      educational - you can learn from literally any inanimate object or person experienced on the subject.

                      organic - your automobile is organic according to the chemist definition.

                      green - Al Gore, you can also include "carbon footprint" or "sustainability" these have been ideas dating back much longer than all of us and have been hijacked by the rich to make them even richer or give them power over the masses.

                      any device with the letter "I" at the begenning - all of a sudden it became popular to have unnessary letters added to every day common items. WTF is an "Itouch" anyways? it sounds dirty.

                       

                      there is a lot of shady "science" behind many of the things that end up being forced on us, does not matter wether by law or percieved nessity.

                       

                      edit: these buzzwords and others have been used to decieve, make money, and controle people.

                        • Re: first mention of twins

                          sheldon bailey wrote:

                           

                          I have a list of buzzwords that make me skeptical of anything. among the top of the list and some my reasoning.

                          best practise - changes more frequently than the weather.  A colleague came up with a definition of the term that I like: "we don't have a clue what we're doing, but we're convinced we're doing it well"

                      • Re: first mention of twins
                        morgaine

                        sheldon bailey wrote:

                         

                        but now it seems the more i read, the more i can't suggest the pi for any use other than a media center.

                         

                        Professionals who are aware of the relevant  FCC regulations shouldn't be suggesting the Pi for use in any residential application in FCC jurisdiction anyway, since the device does not have FCC certification for residential use.  That would be a Class B certification, and it doesn't have one at the present date.

                         

                        I doubt that anyone would deny that media centres constitute an overwhelmingly residential or domestic use of a digital device.  It's probably as close to being a poster child for residential use as one could find anywhere.

                          • Re: first mention of twins
                            sheldon bailey

                            Morgaine, i agree with its unsuitability because of sub par hardware and or design. however in a properly shielded and fire proof box it would be a wonderfull media center.

                              • Re: first mention of twins
                                morgaine

                                From what I hear, Pi does indeed make an exceedingly good media centre.  It's just unfortunate that most of the media centre consumers live in nations that have strong residential equipment certification laws, and Class B (residential) certification is one bullet point that the Pi doesn't offer.

                                • Re: first mention of twins
                                  jamodio

                                  sheldon bailey wrote:

                                   

                                  Morgaine, i agree with its unsuitability because of sub par hardware and or design. however in a properly shielded and fire proof box it would be a wonderfull media center.

                                   

                                  Get a Roku, you will spend less money and time.

                                   

                                  -J

                                    • Re: first mention of twins
                                      7point62

                                      I think that we're veering a bit off-topic - although it's understandable because as engineers and technicians we're more used to weighing up definables than discussing ethics.

                                       

                                      The Foundation have been quite clever, they've told the story about what prompted their formation countless times and then they just let us assume that their liberal use of the word "education" and their charitable status meant that the selling of this low cost computer would be part of some kind of bigger picture. Some of us thought that maybe this was part of a coordinated effort to e.g.

                                       

                                      1) convince the weary U.K. taxpayer that teaching proper computer engineering was a good thing.

                                       

                                      2) Lobby government, educational establishments and the industries that the education system feeds in order to gain cooperation, fashion a plan and eventually a curriculum.

                                       

                                      3) Form partnerships with establishments, individuals and companies in order to provide solutions for that curriculum - a bare computer is nothing without software, supplementary learning materials, peripherals, ongoing support, etc.

                                       

                                      4) Keep charming the non-geek public. It's gonna cost a lot of money, after all. One of the main problems that requires addressing is the lack of specific expertise within the teaching profession. Fixing this would cost rather more than $25 a pop.

                                       

                                      However, anyone who cares to start at the beginning of the RPi blog (http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/date/2011/page/5) and watch any one of the innumerable video presentations may notice that since at least 2011 (the blog begins at around the time of the creation of the alpha boards) pretty much all of the Foundation's efforts have concentrated on selling a board with a big graphics chip to as many people as possible. There are occasional references to "an educational release" and a "programming prize fund", but this is all about selling a product. That's fine - some Pi have ended up in the hands of students and teachers who have unilaterally done amazing things, but most people who want to bring a consumer product to market don't create a charitable foundation in order to do get that product "out there".

                                       

                                      What a pitch - Alan Sugar would be proud.

                                        • Re: first mention of twins
                                          morgaine

                                          That's quite insightful, Jonathan.

                                           

                                          I suspect that clever sleight of hand won't carry much weight with the FCC though.

                                            • Re: first mention of twins
                                              7point62

                                              Morgaine Dinova wrote:

                                               

                                              That's quite insightful, Jonathan.

                                               

                                              I suspect that clever sleight of hand won't carry much weight with the FCC though.

                                              Thanks Morgaine - the amount of evidence suggesting that it's an end-user (consumer / residential) product will hopefully carry a metric bunch of weight though. A cynic might suggest that the FCC doc. linked to in the other thread might be in need of a bit of an update (I think it was dated 1993) and that a really slick lawyer might claim that the Pi is just a populated motherboard and is thus exempt. The Foundation may have to airbrush all references to the word "computer" from the internet in order to pull this off, but they've had a lot of practice at airbrushing history on their forum... [/tongue-in-cheek mode]

                                                • Re: first mention of twins

                                                  a really slick lawyer might claim that the Pi is just a populated motherboard and is thus exempt

                                                  The UK's BIS has already ruled that it was a finished product.

                                                  The E14 FAQ says:

                                                  http://www.element14.com/community/docs/DOC-43262/l/updated-15-march-frequently-asked-questions-about-raspberry-pi

                                                   

                                                  HOT OFF THE PRESS UPDATE FROM EBEN UPTON OF RASPBERRY PI EARLIER TODAY:

                                                  We have spoken with BIS this morning, and have been told that, given the volumes involved and the demographic mix of likely users, the development board exemption is not applicable to us; as a result, even the first uncased developer units of Raspberry Pi will require a CE mark prior to distribution in the EU...... ....we are working with RS Components and element14/Premier Farnell to bring Raspberry Pi into a compliant state as soon as is humanly possible.”

                                                  and

                                                  Over the past weeks, it is clear that customers who have pre-ordered are going to use the Raspberry Pi as a finished product and not just an engineering development board.  We see it as the most responsible approach to ensure that all Pi’s meet the required standards for finished products in their respective country. We are prioritizing the compliance testing process by working closely with the Raspberry Pi foundation and RS Components to make sure there are no more delays.  We take our commitment and responsibility in this area very seriously and believe that while this is a frustrating short-term delay, it’s worth it to ensure our customers receive a fully compliant product.

                                                   

                                                  It would be quite startling to see their position change to it being a finished product in the UK but not in the US.

                                                  There are plenty of published articles and interviews describing the RPi as a computer intended for children's bedrooms.

                                                  http://blog.ted.com/2013/06/14/wherefore-raspberry-pi-eben-upton-at-tedglobal-2013/

                                                   

                                                  What is a Raspberry Pi?

                                                  It’s a credit-card sized computer ...

                                                  ...

                                                  “Our idea was to build something cheap, powerful and available for children’s bedrooms so they could have the same experience we had.”

                                                    • Re: first mention of twins
                                                      7point62

                                                      The prosecution rests. For now.

                                                        • Re: first mention of twins
                                                          sheldon bailey

                                                          is there a thread or source why it failed compliance, and what standards were used to determine?

                                                           

                                                          i would like to look into this a little more.

                                                            • Re: first mention of twins

                                                              See Pete Lomas's blog here:

                                                              we have some definite options for ripping 10db or more off the key gremlin frequencies. Before you ask, yes, this should be enough.

                                                              http://www.element14.com/community/people/PeteL/blog/2012/03/29/spikes-in-the-ether-emc-and-compliance

                                                               

                                                              and my unanswered question:

                                                              Are you trying to meet the Class A industrial standard, or Class B residential?

                                                              http://www.element14.com/community/people/PeteL/blog/2012/03/29/spikes-in-the-ether-emc-and-compliance#comment-13097

                                                               

                                                              Similarly:

                                                              http://www.element14.com/community/people/PeteL/blog/2012/04/07/certification-testing--update

                                                              • Re: first mention of twins
                                                                jamodio

                                                                There are some bits here and there but nothing conclusive or detailed ...

                                                                 

                                                                This is one of the classic ones were we get but don't get some information ...

                                                                 

                                                                http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/978

                                                                 

                                                                Pay attention that at that time they realize the even when  "at the Foundation call the computer a Raspberry Pi in conversation" "This thing’s called a Raspberry Pi, not a Raspberry Pi computer"

                                                                 

                                                                So we (they) call it a computer but is it not.... ohhh right now is a "linux box"

                                                                 

                                                                But first line on "About us" ...

                                                                 

                                                                "The idea behind a tiny and cheap computer for kids came in 2006"

                                                                 

                                                                So it is or it is not a computer ? ... perhaps Shakespeare can provide some light into this identity crisis.

                                                                 

                                                                On thing that they really missed big on the entire strategy and inspiration, is the context in the days of the BBC Micro and such.

                                                                 

                                                                -J


                                                                  • Re: first mention of twins
                                                                    7point62

                                                                    jamodio wrote:

                                                                     

                                                                    There are some bits here and there but nothing conclusive or detailed ...

                                                                     

                                                                    This is one of the classic ones were we get but don't get some information ...

                                                                     

                                                                    http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/978

                                                                     

                                                                    Pay attention that at that time they realize the even when  "at the Foundation call the computer a Raspberry Pi in conversation" "This thing’s called a Raspberry Pi, not a Raspberry Pi computer"

                                                                     

                                                                    So we (they) call it a computer but is it not.... ohhh right now is a "linux box"

                                                                     

                                                                    But first line on "About us" ...

                                                                     

                                                                    "The idea behind a tiny and cheap computer for kids came in 2006"

                                                                     

                                                                    So it is or it is not a computer ? ... perhaps Shakespeare can provide some light into this identity crisis.

                                                                     

                                                                    On thing that they really missed big on the entire strategy and inspiration, is the context in the days of the BBC Micro and such.

                                                                     

                                                                    -J


                                                                    Indeed - the road to a lucrative career in Law is paved with semantics.

                                                                     

                                                                    Regarding Pete Lomas' blog - I see he's not even logged into his account here since October 2012.

                                                                     

                                                                    Morgaine - obviously "getting the paperwork done right" is a given - especially considering the inordinate amount of time that the RPF have spent promoting their product Stateside. It all just makes no sense as there is absolutely nothing to be gained, but a lot to be lost by not getting the relevant certifications

                                                                      • Re: first mention of twins
                                                                        Indeed - the road to a lucrative career in Law is paved with semantics.

                                                                         

                                                                        So how many semantic issues do you detect in the opening line of

                                                                        Eben's March 2013 pycon keynote speach:

                                                                        [Eben]: Thankyou guys. So, my name is Eben Upton, I run a thing based in the UK called the Raspberry Pi Foundation. Ah, we make little computers for kids.

                                                                        https://github.com/robotclass/pycon-us-2013-keynote-eben-upton/blob/master/keynote-eben-upton.textile

                                                                          • Re: first mention of twins
                                                                            7point62

                                                                            coder27 wrote:

                                                                             

                                                                            Indeed - the road to a lucrative career in Law is paved with semantics.

                                                                             

                                                                            So how many semantic issues do you detect in the opening line of

                                                                            Eben's March 2013 pycon keynote speach:

                                                                            [Eben]: Thankyou guys. So, my name is Eben Upton, I run a thing based in the UK called the Raspberry Pi Foundation. Ah, we make little computers for kids.

                                                                            https://github.com/robotclass/pycon-us-2013-keynote-eben-upton/blob/master/keynote-eben-upton.textile

                                                                            I'd say that in my opinion that opening sentence was explicit and not open to misinterpretation by any reasonable person.

                                                                             

                                                                            #1) He's still leaning on the Foundation for promotional purposes, rather than on Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd - of which he is listed as a director.

                                                                             

                                                                            #2) He's promoting his organisation's consumer product. Computers, if I'm not mistaken.

                                                                             

                                                                            Have I missed anything?

                                                                              • Re: first mention of twins
                                                                                morgaine

                                                                                Being a portable computer by the FCC definition  would automatically define Pi as a Class B device.

                                                                                 

                                                                                Note however that it's captured as a Class B device anyway, even without the above, because if falls foul of the FCC's three key questions that distinguish between devices of the two classes:

                                                                                 

                                                                                1. Is the marketing of the device restricted in such a manner that it is not sold to residential users?
                                                                                2. Does the application for which the device is designed generally preclude operation in residential areas?
                                                                                3. Is the price of the device high enough that there is little likelihood that it would be used in a residential environment, including a home business?

                                                                                 

                                                                                Since it fails to be excluded from the residential environment through restricted marketing and sales (point 1), and it cannot avail itself of the exemptions in points 2 and 3, by FCC rules it is a Class B device anyway, even if someone could retrospectively wish away the fact that it is clearly a portable computer.

                                                                                 

                                                                                A Class B device without Class B certification is uncertified for its expected use, and cannot be marketed or offered for sale to residential users.  If it has Class A certification then it can be marketed or offered for sale as a restricted commercial or industrial device, but that is not  how Pi has been marketed and offered for sale, as anyone can plainly see.

                                                                                • Re: first mention of twins

                                                                                  Have I missed anything?

                                                                                  So you would say "I run a thing based in the UK called the RPF, but not officially; we make little computers, but officially just motherboards; it's for kids, but not officially for kids in residential areas."

                                                                                   

                                                                                  The 2013 Premier Farnell annual report shows the target audience as "engineers and hobbyists".

                                                                                  Raspberry Pi

                                                                                  The element14 Community played a key role in another very successful

                                                                                  product launch this year. The Raspberry Pi, the credit card sized computer

                                                                                  developed to put computer programming back at the heart of engineers,

                                                                                  launched to phenomenal interest from engineers and hobbyists alike. In the

                                                                                  first 15 minutes after launch our websites received over ½ million hits as

                                                                                  customers flocked to order from us and by January 2013, Premier Farnell

                                                                                  had sold 600,000 Raspberry Pi units.

                                                                                  http://www.premierfarnell.com/sites/default/files/reports/Premier-Farnell-Annual-Report-2012-13(2).pdf

                                                                                   

                                                                                  The "educational focus" appears to have come at least in part, from David Braben.  Liz wrote:

                                                                                  David was one of the people Eben brought the original idea to, along with the other trustees and a few others who aren't trustees. He's helped us develop the educational focus behind it, ...

                                                                                  http://www.raspberrypi.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=319&start=20

                                                                                    • Re: first mention of twins
                                                                                      morgaine

                                                                                      coder27 quoted:

                                                                                       

                                                                                      "not officially; we make little computers, but officially just motherboards; it's for kids, but not officially for kids in residential areas."

                                                                                      I'd rather not speculate what that meant, but it sounds like something that should have raised a big red flag to Element14 regulatory certification experts.

                                                                                        • Re: first mention of twins
                                                                                          I'd rather not speculate what that meant, but it sounds like  something that should have raised a big red flag to Element14 regulatory certification experts.

                                                                                           

                                                                                          That was my parsing of Eben's quote, not his original quote, just to be clear.

                                                                                           

                                                                                          However, there is no doubt that E14's regulatory certification experts had plenty of

                                                                                          red flags.  They didn't need any more of mine.  They certainly knew it was intended

                                                                                          for residential use, and they certainlly acknowledged that it did not pass Class B.

                                                                                          They also acknowledged that BIS had determined that it was classed as a finished product.

                                                                                          How many more red flags does one need?

                                                                                           

                                                                                          But it is also clear that there was lots of incentive not to incur any further delays

                                                                                          in a project that had the attention of E14's CEO.  They probably assumed, as Liz

                                                                                          claimed, that achieving Class B certification would be easily obtained. 

                                                                                           

                                                                                          Happily, we’ve found it doesn’t need a shielded enclosure to reach Class B, although it will require a (very minimal) redesign.

                                                                                          http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/978#comment-19273

                                                                                            • Re: first mention of twins
                                                                                              morgaine

                                                                                              coder27 wrote:

                                                                                               

                                                                                               

                                                                                              But it is also clear that there was lots of incentive not to incur any further delays in a project that had the attention of E14's CEO.

                                                                                              I suppose it's possible that there is a long reporting chain from the regulatory certification people to the E14 CEO, and the red alert got lost somewhere on its trip to the top.  However, it seems unlikely that a CEO would ever countermand regulatory advice --- that would be career-limiting.  What's more, CEOs almost certainly have input to global policy statements  such as those we examined, since they have funding implications.  This makes it even less likely that the regulatory hiccup was at top level, it seems to me.

                                                                                               

                                                                                              Unfortunately, arguing from the bottom up doesn't work either, because if you're the local FCC certification expert then you would keep poking at the problem until it gets resolved to your satisfaction (it's your job after all), and you'd be highly unlikely to allow yourself to be ignored.  What's more, you have the law on your side, as well as the company Code of Ethics.  Seriously, there is no way your advice could be sidelined in a serious company like this.

                                                                                               

                                                                                              Of course, it could be human error, misreading of the FCC regulations.  The trouble with that is, Title 47 Part 15 is written pretty clearly for engineers and technical management to understand, containing very little convoluted legalese.  And the FCC even went to the trouble to publish the even more simplified OET Bulletin 62, expressly to achieve what it states in its title:  "UNDERSTANDING THE FCC REGULATIONS FOR COMPUTERS AND OTHER DIGITAL DEVICES".  It's not really conceivable that the language there can be misunderstood by someone charged with FCC certification duties.

                                                                                               

                                                                                              So, I'm at a loss to understand how this could possibly have happened.

                                                                                                • Re: first mention of twins

                                                                                                  However, it seems unlikely that a CEO would ever countermand regulatory advice

                                                                                                  We can only speculate as to what advise was given, but apparently at the time the

                                                                                                  contract was signed between E14 and RPF, the operating assumption was that

                                                                                                  limited quantities would be initially produced, and that initial interest in an uncased

                                                                                                  version would be mostly from developers.  

                                                                                                   

                                                                                                  Then the first day of sales demonstrated that the initial operating assumptions were wrong,

                                                                                                  but by then the contract was in place and E14 perhaps didn't feel like they had a whole lot of

                                                                                                  leverage to change the certification plans beyond what could be achieved with the existing board.

                                                                                                   

                                                                                                  Of course that doesn't explain why 1+ years and 1M+ boards later, and with a re-negotiated

                                                                                                  distribution contract, they still don't have a published Class B certificate.

                                                                                                    • Re: first mention of twins
                                                                                                      morgaine

                                                                                                      coder27 wrote:

                                                                                                       

                                                                                                      but by then the contract was in place and E14 perhaps didn't feel like they had a whole lot of

                                                                                                      leverage to change the certification plans beyond what could be achieved with the existing board.

                                                                                                      How about the law of the land.  That tends to give one pretty good leverage.

                                                                                                       

                                                                                                      And those massive FCC penalties  would probably provide pretty good incentive as well.

                                                                                                       

                                                                                                      Of course that doesn't explain why 1+ years and 1M+ boards later, and with a re-negotiated

                                                                                                      distribution contract, they still don't have a published Class B certificate.

                                                                                                      Indeed.  It does not seem likely that the certification department simply fell asleep for 14 months.

                                                                                                      • Re: first mention of twins
                                                                                                        morgaine

                                                                                                        I'm at such a loss for a viable explanation that perhaps it's time to examine alternative possiblities.

                                                                                                         

                                                                                                        What if Element14's regulatory certification team was not involved at all, because all responsibility for Raspberry Pi affairs was factored out to another autonomous department?  And they, lacking the deep knowledge of the regulatory certification team, simply didn't understand the regulatory requirements for devices in residential use?

                                                                                                          • Re: first mention of twins

                                                                                                            What if Element14's regulatory certification team was not involved at all, because all responsibility for Raspberry Pi affairs was factored out to another autonomous department?  And they, lacking the deep knowledge of the regulatory certification team, simply didn't understand the regulatory requirements for devices in residential use?

                                                                                                            Feel free to ask the experts what happened.  They welcome questions.

                                                                                                             

                                                                                                            Do you have any queries about electronics legislation? Send your questions to Gary at glegislation@premierfarnell.com

                                                                                                            http://www.element14.com/community/docs/DOC-38293/l/gary-nevison--legislation-compliance-expert

                                                                                                             

                                                                                                            or

                                                                                                            http://www.element14.com/community/community/legislation?ICID=expertgroup#askexpert

                                                                                                             

                                                                                                            It appears from their recent document updates that the compliance experts are not on holiday.

                                                                                                              • Re: first mention of twins
                                                                                                                morgaine

                                                                                                                It'll be important to ask questions which they can  answer.  Questions about internal business issues, however interesting they might be, would probably not be in that category.

                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                However, we do have a genuine and very specific role as stakeholders, defined by Premier Farnell as:

                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                • The employees of the Premier Farnell Group
                                                                                                                • Potential future employees
                                                                                                                • Customers and suppliers of all Premier Farnell Group companies
                                                                                                                • Members of the local communities in which we operate
                                                                                                                • Premier Farnell plc shareholders, and the investment community at large

                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                As PF stakeholders in at least two of the above categories, we have a very strong stake in the legal and safe operation of the products we buy from the Group, which are being marketed and sold to us as residential users but without carrying residential certification.  This has a strong possibility of being unlawful in some key jurisdictions.  If the group's Code of Ethics is at all meaningful, this should provide a good platform from which to ask a direct question and have it addressed in an effective way, and not with a brush off.  EMC is an important issue, and can even be fatal.

                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                Perhaps we can come up with a well-formed question or two reflecting our genuine stake in this.

                                                                                                                  • Re: first mention of twins

                                                                                                                    Perhaps we can come up with a well-formed question or two reflecting our genuine stake in this.

                                                                                                                    I don't think there's anything difficult about what the question is, it's simply

                                                                                                                    how is it legally possible to market the RPi to residential customers without

                                                                                                                    a Class B certificate.

                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                    The difficulty is getting someone to answer it.  The closest we've come to an

                                                                                                                    answer is that Gary Nevison said

                                                                                                                    It is legal to place Class A equipment on the market for use in a domestic environment in both the EU and U.S. and to

                                                                                                                    affix the CE and FCC mark provided that there is a warning on the product that it may cause interference.

                                                                                                                    and that he

                                                                                                                    will also post a blog around this subject containing further statements of authority.

                                                                                                                    http://www.element14.com/community/community/legislation/europe/other/blog/2012/04/17/the-pi-is-now-ready#comment-13501

                                                                                                                      • Re: first mention of twins
                                                                                                                        morgaine

                                                                                                                        coder27 wrote:

                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                               Gary Nevison said (my highlighting in bold):

                                                                                                                        It is legal to place Class A equipment on the market for use in a domestic environment in both the EU and U.S. and to affix the CE and FCC mark provided that there is a warning on the product that it may cause interference.

                                                                                                                        Citation needed.

                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                        I've seen no such exemption in Title 47 Part 15 anywhere (there are instructions about warning labels, but for different purposes).  It wouldn't even make any sense, since if it were true the unscrupulous wouldn't ever bother to obtain Class B certifications for residential equipment at all, they'd just use Class A and a warning label, and EMC chaos would ensue.

                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                        The warning label is almost certainly for Class A equipment marketed and sold exclusively to commercial, industrial or business users, with a label warning that should such equipment be used in a residential setting, it could cause interference.  That's totally different.  FCC regulations distinguish Class A from Class B digital devices based on to whom they are marketed and sold.  A Class A device by definition cannot be marketed and sold to residential users.

                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                        Title 47 Part 15.3 Section (h) states it clearly (my highlighting in bold):

                                                                                                                        FCC writes:

                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                        (h) Class A digital device. A digital device that is marketed for use in a commercial, industrial or business environment, exclusive of a device which is marketed for use by the general public or is intended to be used in the home.

                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                        (i) Class B digital device. A digital device that is marketed for use in a residential environment notwithstanding use in commercial, business and industrial environments. Examples of such devices include, but are not limited to, personal computers, calculators, and similar electronic devices that are marketed for use by the general public.

                                                                                                                        It's stated in black and white.  A Class A device cannot be marketed for use by the general public or intended to be used in the home.  If it's marketed for use by the general public or intended to be used in the home then it's no longer a Class A device, it becomes a Class B device.  That's the whole point of the word "exclusive" in Section (h).  The corresponding definition of a Class B device is given in Section (i).

                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                        ====

                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                        I think it may be appropriate to link to Premier Farnell's Code of Ethics  here (again).  It's not that I expect any finessing of FCC regulations, but I'd much rather forestall them rather than have to point them out later.  I like Farnell, and I would be disappointed for the esteem earned over many decades to drop.  By the book, please.

                                                                                                                          • Re: first mention of twins

                                                                                                                            I've seen no such exemption in Title 47 Part 15 anywhere (there are instructions about warning labels, but for different purposes). 

                                                                                                                            Exactly.

                                                                                                                            I'm not expecting E14 to stick with that answer, for exactly the reasons you give,

                                                                                                                            and I think that's the reason why the promised authorities for it never appeared.

                                                                                                                            Their previous answer, that "the board is in a much better place than it potentially was",

                                                                                                                            isn't an answer I expect them to go back to either, since it directly implies that

                                                                                                                            the place it's in isn't where it needs to be.

                                                                                                                            So I'm looking forward to what the next answer will be.

                                                                                                                        • Re: first mention of twins
                                                                                                                          morgaine

                                                                                                                          If the Pi certification mishap can be remedied quickly before it brings forth unfortunate ramifications, it might even be worthwhile becoming a PF stakeholder of the 5th type.  But then I'd be very keen about details of which part of the business was responsible for this mess, and assurance that it could not happen again.

                                                                                                            • Re: first mention of twins
                                                                                                              7point62

                                                                                                              @coder27: It would then seem that David Braben might be an important factor - if education was indeed the motivation for his involvement. I note that he is part of the Cambridge set though.

                                                                                                               

                                                                                                              PC mag reported in 2011 that Braben was actually the creator of the Raspberry Pi and ran a feature:

                                                                                                               

                                                                                                              http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2385055,00.asp

                                                                                                               

                                                                                                              It's this kind of shoddy tech "journalism" that is responsible for the current situation imo. As now, "education" is hinted at, but it's explicitly a hardware sales pitch.

                                                                                                               

                                                                                                              Good work btw.

                                                                                                                • Re: first mention of twins

                                                                                                                  It would then seem that David Braben might be an important factor

                                                                                                                  Yes, I think so.  My impression is that Eben's goal is to shift lots of units,

                                                                                                                  regardless of where they are shifted to, and that fits with his position with the

                                                                                                                  RP Trading subsidiary.  I don't detect much enthusiasm from him with regard to

                                                                                                                  developing educational materials.

                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                  btw, Abishur credits Liz's legal work for the original determination that compliance

                                                                                                                  testing wasn't needed until later.

                                                                                                                  The issue was that originally the boards were going to be released as development boards and therefore didn’t need the CE stamp (Liz is a lawyer, she did her homework ;-) ), but due to how many boards there are being ordered and the fact that the first 10K will be released with the main bulk release the distribs decided they wanted them all CE marked.

                                                                                                                  http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/852#comment-17096

                                                                                                                  • Re: first mention of twins

                                                                                                                    It's this kind of shoddy tech "journalism" that is responsible for the current situation imo.

                                                                                                                    I think the "journalists" are only half responsible.  Eben likes to talk about how he was

                                                                                                                    the Director of Studies at St. John's College at Cambridge University prior to founding

                                                                                                                    the RPF in 2008, and how he and his Cambridge colleages were motivated by noticing

                                                                                                                    a decline from the mid 1990's to the mid 2000's in the number and quality of applicants.

                                                                                                                    So you might assume that Eben was Director of Studies from the mid 1990's to the mid

                                                                                                                    2000's.   But I believe he graduated from Cambridge with his CS PhD in 2005, and started

                                                                                                                    work at Broadcom in July 2006.

                                                                                                      • Re: first mention of twins
                                                                                                        morgaine

                                                                                                        Jonathan Garrish wrote:

                                                                                                         

                                                                                                        The prosecution rests. For now.

                                                                                                        I sure hope that the message Element14 received was not about prosecution but about preventing bad things from happening before they happen.  After all this analysis of the regulatory situation perhaps we can rest, but Element14 cannot.  They have an official group-wide Code of Ethics  to adhere to, so I'm sure they are taking the matter seriously now that they have been alerted to the problem.

                                                                                                         

                                                                                                        Every single stakeholder  in the Pi ecosystem is at risk (in different ways) because of this certification error, from suppliers to importers, distributors, retailers, users operating unintentionally radiating devices without knowing it, and other people in the residential vicinity of those devices who could be affected by them.  There is a very good reason for requiring residential certification, it's not just a pointless burden on manufacturing.  It's to prevent bad things from happening, a part of engineering and social responsibility.

                                                                                                         

                                                                                                        Alas, there is still no acknowledgement of this week's advice in Feedback & Support on this matter.

                                                                                              • Re: first mention of twins
                                                                                                sheldon bailey

                                                                                                jamodio wrote:

                                                                                                 

                                                                                                Get a Roku, you will spend less money and time.

                                                                                                 

                                                                                                -J

                                                                                                the roku is nice, but I always have old desktop pc hardware thrown at me, been using one as a media centre for a few years now.

                                                                                                 

                                                                                                even if the Rpi makes it way to the super poor areas, it would probably be traded for a meal or two. what good is an internet connected device if there is no internet?

                                                                                                 

                                                                                                while the Internet can be a good tool to help learn for people who actually use it responsibly, it is also a great distraction, and it lends to the "cut and paste" type of problem solving, that has no educational value whatsoever.

                                                                                                  • Re: first mention of twins

                                                                                                    sheldon bailey wrote:

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    while the Internet can be a good tool to help learn for people who actually use it responsibly, it is also a great distraction, and it lends to the "cut and paste" type of problem solving, that has no educational value whatsoever.

                                                                                                    I also find that increasingly the signal to noise ratio of the internet's cut&paste solution communities is so bad that they're just reinforcing the problems, so overall a negative value.

                                                                                                      • Re: first mention of twins
                                                                                                        mcb1

                                                                                                        Sometimes its not the cut and paste that the problem, the lack of checking the facts is often as bad.

                                                                                                         

                                                                                                        Even if I'm sure of the answer, I tend to check, lest someone find it wasn't right ....

                                                                                                         

                                                                                                         

                                                                                                        Mark

                                                                                                          • Re: first mention of twins
                                                                                                            7point62

                                                                                                            Mark Beckett wrote:

                                                                                                             

                                                                                                            Sometimes its not the cut and paste that the problem, the lack of checking the facts is often as bad.

                                                                                                             

                                                                                                            Even if I'm sure of the answer, I tend to check, lest someone find it wasn't right ....

                                                                                                             

                                                                                                             

                                                                                                            Mark

                                                                                                            An awful lot of people have copy - pasted the word "education" when referring to this little computer when the link is tenuous at best. Since at least the time of the alpha boards it has been marketed as a hobbyist / hacker item and the capability of the (not very relevant to education) Videocore GPU was initially a large part of the pitch - here's a faily typical presentation from Maker Faire NY 2011:

                                                                                                             

                                                                                                            http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/179

                                                                                                             

                                                                                                            I'm struggling to find a justification for the use of the word "educational" at all - sure, it's cheap enough to be accessible to students and teachers, but does that justify the Foundation's charitable status? There's certainly very little concrete information from the Foundation themselves regarding how they intend to fulfil the (rather vague) aims set out on their Charity Commission page:

                                                                                                             

                                                                                                            http://www.charitycommission.gov.uk/search-for-a-charity/?txt=raspberry+pi+foundation

                                                                                                             

                                                                                                            "THE OBJECT OF THE CHARITY IS TO FURTHER THE ADVANCEMENT OF EDUCATION OF ADULTS AND CHILDREN, PARTICULARLY IN THE FIELD OF COMPUTERS, COMPUTER SCIENCE AND RELATED SUBJECTS"

                                                                                                             

                                                                                                            That's the "why", so where's the "how"? Will the end justify the means? Will manufacturers who haven't taken the option of exploiting charitable status feel that there is an element of unfair competition? Will other charities fear negative publicity?

                                                                                                              • Re: first mention of twins
                                                                                                                mcb1

                                                                                                                Johnathon

                                                                                                                We have a similar issue with 'charities' here in NZ.

                                                                                                                Recently it was discovered that at least one large private hospital has that staus, but there are no rules about how much money is supposed to returned to the community, or the like.

                                                                                                                It was not well received by the public when it was pointed out some of these 'charities' contribute very little compared to their profit.

                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                There was a suggestion that some business'es should set up as a 'charity' and remove the need to pay taxes, etc.

                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                I see the odd clip that show Eben at primary schools, etc.

                                                                                                                I guess this constitutes education, but yes if you wanted to further the original stated aim, then more material would be good.

                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                Regardless of the pros and cons, it has certainly set a benchmark for small computers, and probably introduced some that would otherwise not be involved.

                                                                                                                On a slightly off topic, I was sent his link, and was wondering what is at 3.23 in the first video at http://edition.cnn.com/2013/08/30/tech/innovation/big-plans-tiny-creations-index-awards

                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                mark

                                                                                                                  • Re: first mention of twins
                                                                                                                    morgaine

                                                                                                                    Mark Beckett wrote:

                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                    I see the odd clip that show Eben at primary schools, etc.  I guess this constitutes education, but yes if you wanted to further the original stated aim, then more material would be good.

                                                                                                                    There's a fine line between promoting IT education and self-serving promotion of a single board in schools.

                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                    If Microsoft were engaged in high-profile Windows promotion in schools under the excuse of "education", I suspect that a lot of people would be concerned about their underlying motivation.

                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                    RPF seems to have a free pass because of their charity status.  That's quite reasonable I think, since in exchange for the free pass, the profits of the not-for-profit Foundation are expected to fund educational targets --- a worthwhile exchange.  The existence of Raspberry Pi (Trading) complicates the picture somewhat, but there is no reason to believe that the for-profit company will siphon off profits that should be spent on RP Foundation's self-declared educational goals.  For-profit companies have the goal of making profit, but hopefully the Foundation's trustees will ensure that only an absolute minimum of Pi profits will flow into non-educational pockets.  As you suggest though, a lot more spending on educational staff and educational materials is needed.  Without that, the "educational" part of Pi seems destined to be more of an excuse than a reality.

                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                    I'd also suggest that "Pi exclusivity" for education be de-emphasized by RPF, because IT education does not begin and end with Pi.  To gain the ethical high ground, the emphasis should be more neutral across the many low-cost platforms that can accomplish the educational goals, and the Pi offered as just one enabler.  What's more, special mention should be given by RPF to open platforms (especially OSHW) that can educate more fully than their semi-closed one.  Taking such a neutral position would greatly increase their ethical standing as a not-for-profit foundation, in my view.

                                                                                                      • Re: first mention of twins

                                                                                                        Professionals who are aware of the relevant  FCC regulations ...

                                                                                                        for the record, I have tried to locate the first professional to credit for raising

                                                                                                        the issue of Class B testing.  Does anyone have any earlier reference than

                                                                                                        https://twitter.com/abishurp/status/188635726030708736

                                                                                                        @Raspberry_Pi Did y'all also do the class B testing (do y'all still plan on doing it?) or are you quitting while you're ahead here?

                                                                                                        7:33 AM - 7 Apr 12


                                                                                                    • Re: first mention of twins
                                                                                                      jamodio

                                                                                                      Following up from some previous comments ...

                                                                                                       

                                                                                                      The problem with education in science and technology (you can add art too) is not a hardware problem... The Rpi is not a solution.

                                                                                                       

                                                                                                      The lack of, or limited, or non-affordable Internet access can't be solved with the Rpi, and IMHO as an "Internet Device" it sucks.

                                                                                                       

                                                                                                      One of the keys to fix the current educational system is to throw 99.99% of it away, it is the same system we were educated, and our grandparents too, we waste zillions in $$ to print outdated books that very often nobody uses, and we tell the kids how to answer a question instead of training them to reason about how to get to the answer.

                                                                                                       

                                                                                                      The Rpi could be an interesting way to "entice" kids to get involved with technology, but again it is not a hardware problem, I'll spend more time and cycles on how to teach good ol math and logic in a more innovative and modern way, the Rpi and Phyton are not "teaching" tools. I learned to program with a notepad and a pencil.

                                                                                                       

                                                                                                      I really don't have a good answer on what is best to do, and it is something where we can use  all these collaboration tools, social media, forums, etc, where we can openly discuss and share ideas and experiences, but when part of the discussion is "censored," or biased, or if you think differenet or have other ideas get tagged as a "concern troll" it won't work, and we are wasting this valuable community and way of communication.

                                                                                                       

                                                                                                      My kids were born in a complete different world, they don't "dial" a number anymore ... they need an educational system upgraded to their generation.

                                                                                                       

                                                                                                      I really like listening/reading Sir Ken Robinson approach to the urgent need to change the way how we educate kids.

                                                                                                       

                                                                                                      My .02

                                                                                                      Jorge

                                                                                                        • Re: first mention of twins
                                                                                                          morgaine

                                                                                                          jamodio wrote:

                                                                                                           

                                                                                                          The Rpi could be an interesting way to "entice" kids to get involved with technology, but again it is not a hardware problem, I'll spend more time and cycles on how to teach good ol math and logic in a more innovative and modern way, the Rpi and Phyton are not "teaching" tools. I learned to program with a notepad and a pencil.

                                                                                                          Well said.  Enticement and education are two different things.

                                                                                                           

                                                                                                          Cheap computer boards can provide enticement, and they can reduce the financial disincentive against experimentation, but by themselves they provide no education at all.  In addition to a suitable platform and/or equipment, education requires  1) a learning process and 2)  very strong learning involvement by the person who is trying to learn.  These are not optional.

                                                                                                           

                                                                                                          The learning process is in virtually all cases some variation on a person who knows something communicating that knowledge to someone who doesn't.  The presence of the tutor doesn't have to be in person --- textbooks have provided communication of knowledge by inanimate proxy ever since the printing press was invented, and nowadays electronic equivalents abound.  They are always present however, and non-optional.  Without them, a platform like a computer board can  educate only by accident of undirected personal experimentation.  Efficient directed learning requires input from those who already have the knowledge, a planned learning process.

                                                                                                           

                                                                                                          Involvement by the learner is not optional either.  You learn nothing about programming through cut'n'paste of downloaded source code into your IDE following by clicking 'Build' and 'Run'.  Nothing at all.  You might think you have learned something at the time because you did read and maybe understood the source code, but a fortnight later you will remember nothing, and even less will you be able to apply the experience to other problems.  It requires effort (and a certain amount of pain) to learn, and without that effort you will not learn despite having gone through the motions.

                                                                                                           

                                                                                                          This is just to expand on what you wrote.  A cheap platform can certainly remove barriers to education (and that is definitely valuable), but it should not be confused with education itself.  That's a much harder nut to crack.

                                                                                                          • Re: first mention of twins

                                                                                                            jamodio wrote:

                                                                                                             

                                                                                                            One of the keys to fix the current educational system is to throw 99.99% of it away, it is the same system we were educated, and our grandparents too, we waste zillions in $$ to print outdated books that very often nobody uses, and we tell the kids how to answer a question instead of training them to reason about how to get to the answer.

                                                                                                            couldn't agree more. even as a kid I could never understand why the only 'correct' answer was the one they wanted to hear. Go beyond obvious stuff like 2+2 and it's rarely so simple.

                                                                                                             

                                                                                                            Outdated books is only part of the problem, I recently had to go and get an 'industry certification' where the 5 year old PC being used for the exam proved that the 'correct' answer was now wrong as while technology had moved on, the certification hasn't. I found it quite amusing as by passing the exam I'm basically getting myself certified as being at least out of date, if not outright incompetent

                                                                                                             

                                                                                                            I learned to program with a notepad and a pencil.

                                                                                                            in hex.. since various bits of software weren't available and had to be done by hand. I'd not necessarily wish that experience on others, but it certainly gave a bit of perspective and a deeper understanding that doesn't seem to exist in these days of drag & drop 'programming'.