Pressure sensor might help.
Or capacitive sensors, like in touch screens.
- An array, or single.
But that involves contact, which might disturb the subject.
A disturbance already would come from your light show. Maybe one more - a contact - would not hurt.
A danger of contact is that a bad design might get into the eye, if it becomes loose by accident.
Perhaps you could use a pressure sensor without contact: detect changes in air pressure.
A non invasive way would be to use a photo camera either for visible light or IR.
The problem with a camera for visible light is obvious: you need an ambient light (emission).
Cameras offer greater detail, which you may not require though.
Maybe a cheap sensor is all you need.
Ultrasaound would also require a constant emission of ambient energy.
Try a completely different approach: detect motion of the body, breathing, snorring, belching (from both ends of the body). - You may detect them all either by touch, or sound, or ignition (on the rear end - readily, on the front - after unhealthy drinks).
This might be easier, and more informative.
You might mix the sound of the subject with ambient sound, and react to both.
Hmmm, interesting idea. I would think the only effective way to do this would be to have several different lasers so that you could tell where the eye was moving. Then again, maybe where the eye is isn't as important as how fast it's moving. I'm glad I stumbled upon this thread, as it's making my brain work. I don't have much experience with engineering yet--I only just started my degree at school and have not explored much on my own yet, other than tinkering with an arduino. Keep me updated, though. I'd be interested to hear what you come up with.
I actually just finished it last night after a week of collecting parts and writing the firmware, i found one solution which was a pressure sensitive/vibration film from sparkfun.com it works really well but the problem is that in the night the mask doesnt stay in one place leading to the sensor not properly touching my eyelid so even though its detecting movement its not within "the standards" ive set up to activate a part of the program..
Currently it outputs analog.. And i have it set up to take in readings over 3 to be "movement" and if theres movement over x amounts of time then it activated a protocal.. Like i said though since the sensor changes position it may sometimes always be activating or sometimes not at all because its not in that threshold... Im unsure of how to make the program respond to it right since its so sensitive it picks up vibrations from my heatbeat through my skin so i cant just say activate on movement...
As for the lucid dreaming, its working really well, so far -sometimes- detecting rem sleep and notifying me with customizable patterns. Then i can do whatever, make whatever, design whater universe i want.. Its pretty mind blowing but it has to rely on detecting rem sleep to work properly.. So far the film isnt working that well... And IR leds are a whole other ball game that i tried and failed with unless anyone else has ideas how to detect subtle changes in ir properly since im a novice still
Well, how often does an eye move during REM? Additionally, do you have a ceiling on the movement? For instanct, if the movement is over 3 but under 5, could that help reduce some of the 'noise' caused by the movement of the sensor?
theres around a 5 hour buffer before real rem starts.. then theres 4 stages you go through each time before going into rem again. if you recieve any stimulus in the first stag then you'll most likley be worken up and groggy.. after each 4 stage non-rem sleep you go into rem sleep for around 10 minutes, then around 20 to 80 minutes of non rem then about 20 mins of rem then 20- 80 of N rem again , then 30 of rem then 20 - 80 of Nrem then 40 minutes of rem and the cycles continues till you have around an hour or REM sleep after 8-10 hours of sleep or so...
I,ve programmed it so you can set when the device starts and you can aim it at that last hour of rem sleep.. only if the rem detection works.. which I'll try again tonight to see what happens
during rem your eye is moves constantly i assume. It is basicly yourself looking around in a dream.. so i guess it could be still staring at "someone" or "something" or moving if you are looking around.. but its known that your eyes are vary still in Nrem sleep
aside from that, its really sensitive.. and the analog noice from nearby electronics makes it really wonky.. just setting it on my table the readings go from 2 - 10 randomly but not often.. 2-3 vary often
and the reading when its on the eye lid is around 3- 6 or so with mild movement and 6-12 with really sparatic left to right movement..
the program like i said, counts the number of times it goes over 3 and if that number is small it ignores it and if its large it detects "movement..
I guess I may be able to detect a baseline during Nrem at the start of sleep to make sure it knows what non-movement is.. but that still doesn't solve the problem of the sensor loesing contact with the eyelid over the course of the night.. tossing and turning really moves the mask around.. tightening it would work but it's just too uncomfortable to sleep in that way..
have you heard anything on reducing analog noise somehow?
If your touch panel loses touch, then you have to design padding so that it does not loose touch.
If all fails, you may always apply metal springs, anchors, glue, or heavy weight.
If the problem is that the panel slips aside, still touching other parts of the body, then you have to design a larger panel, with more sensors, so a sensor ir always over an eye. When it slips, another comes into its place.
Lost touch can occur with any other sensor. A nudge by hand is strong enough to displace just about anything. Be it IR, PIR, photo camera, or touch panel.
Lasers are a danger to an eye. Avoid them. Avoid emitting any light for the purpose of detection of motion. - Even not a laser.
Analogue noise will not go away, if its form is comparable to your signal. Your signal has to be stronger than noise.
If your signal, or noise has some dominant frequency, then you can tune to that frequency, of filter it out.
Occasional, or constant spikes of noise are easy to filter by a simple RC filter (resistor, capacitor), or just a capacitor by itself. It would distort the fronts of the signal. But if the signal is long enough, it would come through.
If your signal is indistiguishable from noise, then you can't separate it from noise.
Have you considered PIR sensors mounted in swimming goggles. By reducing the field of view. I may be possible to record eye movement.
That would be incredibly uncomfortable i think, currently its in a padded sleeping mask which is pretty comfortable just not when its strapped tight
Maybe not as uncomfortable as you think. I seen a similar product that has foam around the eye sockets. Since their not designed to keep out water only light they may be acceptable.
The cups from a set of swimming goggles may be modified for the project.
Just brain storming at 11:45 PM
Another idea would be dots painted in the eyelids and tracked with IR cameras.
Retro reflective tape discs may also work.
c'mon, a bit of logic should be used when brainstorming. I'm not going to paint stuff on my eyelids to get this to work. It's got to be something that works nightly, and is consistant.
i need a releable way of detecting rem sleep. I've got tons of programming room to compute a lot of stuff preferably not vary often as to not kill the battery.
maybe a heatbeat sensor?
it has to be cheap too, I'm not going to buy a camera and hope to attach it in a way that wont intrude my sleep..
I'm struggling to find something relable at this point
I'm sorry i offended you. I really did not have much to go on. I was not trying to make fun of your project and logic was used in the idea. The dot on the eyes are used in motion picture animation. A tiny (cheep) webcam with IR light would have been sufficient.
Regardless, If your going to take offence to the help I am trying to provide, I'm sorry, I can't help you.
Otherwise, point me in the right direction (such as a link to the sleep mask you referred to) and we'll see if we can solve this dilemma.
There are 2 primary paths to consider, an appliance to the eyelid (Contact) and a remote monitoring method (non-contact).
A third path would be to try and measure the pulse to the muscles controlling the eye movement. However, this may be cost prohibitive.
Steve actually makes a pretty good point with the dots on your eyes. If you could use the type of paint used for motion caption and paint small dots on your eyes, it might allow the lasers to more easily track the movement beneath the eyelids.
I used a LTE-302, LTR-301 emitter, detector pair when I made a dream mask. Your eyelids are more or less transparent to IR. Worked well for detecting movement but getting the programming right to avoid false detection takes some time to get it dialed in.
I'm currently working on using heartrate to detect REM. I also have seen a EEG brakeout board recently released for around $50 and looking at that as well.
I just read an article from a Japanese research group that mentioned that heart rate could be a way of detecting REM sleep, but it was somewhat dated, and I hadn't seen any further research done on it since then. Would you couple the heart rate with the IR sensor?
Just wanted to comment on an earlier post / reply about brainstorming suggestions. For any brainstorming session to be really effective participants need to be able to make their suggestions without fear of instant rejection or negativity. Some of the most successful products and technology breakthroughs have originated in truly outlandish ideas ... by the way - dots are used in motion capture, the idea is based on sound principles used in a very financially lucrative industry. In fact, I think this idea might actually be your least invasive, lowest cost alternative ... just put the head in a vise to hold it still while sleeping. Use padding if you don't like the feeling of cold, hard steel gripping the sides of your head!
Just wondering ... is there an arduino sensor for polysomnography (PSG), brain wave frequencies? This web site discusses another method for detecting REM dream state based on brain activity. http://blog.myzeo.com/can-sleep-frequencies-be-detected-from-all-points-of-the-head-or-are-some-spots-better-than-others/
Also here is a product that is ready to go and seems to be pretty effective. Wondering how the price 147 euros compares to what others on this forum have already invested in their projects? http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/rem-dreamer.html
I was looking at the REM-Dreamer as well. The price point is pretty high. While reading some posts from the Bitbreaker folks (who created the Remee), they said that they didn't think that the IR motion detection was reliable, and that any motion could set it off. However, the Remee has also had some negative reviews showing that it is very difficult to line up their timed flashing sequence with your potential dream state, so I think that there is room for improvement there as well.
I used a vishay integrated IR sensor VCNL 4020 for rem detection, works well you can see a short video of the "mask" on youtube at http://youtu.be/lAmb9NLvfqk
also used a 3 axis accelerometer to detect head movement to reject false positives of rem from mask, head movemement. Main uController is a pic 18LF2550.
uses ramtron serial FRAM to store rem data, and several other chips for battery charge controller, voltage regulation, etc.
I see the youtube video you included is private. Is there any chance you make public? I'd like to see the sensor in action in such a tiny distance movements, since I'm concerned about background noise...
Sounds like an interesting project - I liked the Remee design, but like you wish that it had a sensor technology installed.
If you are still brainstorming, have you considered using dry EEG leads instead of IR sensors?
I was looking at the Emotiv Insight Kickstarter project, which is trying to make an affordable dry EEG sensor kit that fits on the head like a futuristic helmet. However, looking at the dev kit they are getting made in the Kickstarter, it is roughly 300 dollars. If I'm not mistaken, you're probably looking for a Remee price range, and I agree - if the lucid dreaming assistance device could be priced at 50$, the community would beat a path to your door.
My suggestion is to look at dry-contact electrodes. There was a schematic and picture of a very nice one in the article, "Dry-Contact and Noncontact Biopotential Electrodes: Methodological Review", in IEEE Reviews in . Figure two shows the schematic and a picture of the electrode, which is roughly the size of a quarter and very thin.
My background is bone physiology, so I am no expert in electroencephalograms, but I wonder if two of these dry contact electrodes, one for each temple, couldn't be used to make a simple measurement of frontal lobe and eyeball activity. At the very least, large eye movements could probably be identified, which is a technique already in place called electro-oculography (EOG). Embedding the electrodes in a sleep mask would minimize motion and friction, which generates artifacts and increases noise.
I would also be interested to see if once a person becomes lucid, their EEGs would change enough that a basic algorithm could detect and then stop the flashes, like you are suggesting.
You'll have to let me know if you proceed with this project. I've been working on lucid dreaming for months now with no success, and am looking for a little assistance. I'm also awful with electronics, or otherwise I would be tinkering right alongside you. On the other hand, give me a call whenever you want custom designed bacteria.
EDIT: I had someone ask to define the REMEE. Remee is a Kickstarter project that was successfully funded, very similar to the original post. It is an LED-imbedded sleep mask that can be programmed to turn on and off at certain times. The limitation with this device is that it is difficult to time your natural REM cycle each and every night to coincide with the LED flashing, which means that the LEDs may be flashing while the individual is not dreaming.
Message was edited by: Dustin Huber
Hi. I hope someone can help. I have bought a R.E.M. dreamer mask which has 2 led lights and an infrared detector which detects eye movement during REM. I’m a little concerned that the infrared detector could damage the eye in some way as I’m sleeping with this detector thing bouncing off my eye all night.
are these infrared detectors safe or could they cause long term damage. I’m not too clued up about radiation or infrared so please excuse my lack of knowledge
the mask is called remdreamer and an be found at www.remdreamer.com
many thanks everyone
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Looks like an interesting system.
There isn't much info on the site about the lights or what the device is doing - maybe the manual has more info.
It would seem the device is using visible light flashing to help induce REM sleep. If this is the case you should be able to view it while awake and adjust the brightness to a comfortable level. Be sure to shine it through your eyelids - not directly into your eyes. The info does indicate flash brightness is settable. If you want to reduce intensity even more, tape some paper in front of the LEDs.
There is also a warning that people who may be susceptible to epileptic seizures shouldn't use the device.
The site doesn't mention IR or even tracking rapid eye movement - if it is doing this it doesn't need to use high power - the IR light should be just enough to reflect off the eyelid. If they were using UV light - that would be a much more dangerous and I doubt they would be doing that.
There are only 2 LEDs showing on the PCB and they appear to be visible light LEDs.
It is possible to measure the light output if you are worried about it.
Part of a lucid dreaming mask i've been thinking of making. I want to use a sensor of some sort to detect REM sleep and then once in a lucid dreaming state I'd like to have a feedback system that looks for a set pattern of movements, so i can tell the device to stop emiting lights when I am in a lucid dreaming state.
My other option is to use an accelerometer to detect rem sleep in patterns fo movements every 90 minutes but thats seems erratic and prone to problems
any ideas or advice would be much appriciated!