8 Replies Latest reply on Jan 23, 2017 7:58 AM by dukepro

    Subscription model issues

    CadSoft Guest

      I've read a lot of complains about this new model, some real concerns,

      and some lesser real to the plain grumpy ones. I suggest we list up the

      real concerns here, and I will start with mine.

       

      First, an plausible explanation why changes are frustrating for the

      users. All the users already writing their frustration have all spent

      and will continue spending their time on this issue. If there was no

      change in licensing, this time would have been used for something

      productive. This causes some frustration. The users who don't care can

      save this time, but the ones having real concerns should be listened to

      when they spend their time on it.

       

      My own biggest concern has already started; Unneccesary mental

      involvement (or lost time if you like). This is something I have started

      to protect myself against, seeing flood waves of "social" media wanting

      my attention. Supscription model requires my (and matbe my teams) time

      and us to think about alot of whatif scenarios. This is uncomfortable

      because there is no answer. What I do know is that if something goes

      wrong, my data may (in extreme worst case) end up close to worthless.

      The reason why I added "close to" is that the data is xml format, and

      does make some sense, at lest for me with a lot of understanding about

      eagle structures. This comforts me.

       

      Some of my whatifs are:

      -Will autodesk be able to serve all the eagle online versions after

      aquistions/new management and/or company policies? I think we will be

      forced to use latest version, but it doesnt take much to imagine retro

      issues in 10-20 years. All online tools will have retro issues by nature.

       

      -How much money will my project cost and what subscription model fits me

      best? This is impossible to answer. The projects I work with may be

      intense layout in 6-24 months, then there is mostly idling for years

      until we need to make a new product.So I, and maybe my team have to

      spend some time trying to get a forecast. Not just that, but if we go

      for 6 months subscription, we have to spend time on doing a new aval

      before the next layout wave! This is wasted time compare to the other

      model, so we will maybe end up (after wasting that time) throwing our

      money at continuous subscription to avoid spending even more time trying

      to find a "good" answer.

       

      The comfort of only needing to trust myself keeping binaries(inc keys),

      not having to worry or make purchase decisions until you are confident

      new features will ease your job, is very pleasant to a busy mind, and

      even worth paying premium for.

       

        • Re: Subscription model is sues
          Justynb

          My own concern is about the mechanism, I need guranteed access to my

          designs through Eagle, no matter what external factors are present.

           

          License enforcement systems are by their nature quite fragile, because they

          are designed to prevent software from starting if they believe that the

          machine has changed (otherwise people would copy relevent data from one

          machine to another).

           

          In other words you may find that despite having let Eagle ping the servers

          recently a system change on your computer means that the software needs to

          authenticate again.

           

          If you are offline at this point, or the server is down, you're screwed.

           

          Worse, if the system update was actually incompatible with the license

          checking mechanism then the software provider has to release an update

          before it will run at all.

           

          Lastly in the longer term we may try to access our Eagle files 10 years

          from now and find that they are incompatible, perhaps Eagle has shut down

          or radically changed. We will have no way of using those designs.

           

          That they have a fairly open file format mitigates my concerns very

          slightly. Otherwise I would not even consider it.

           

          Matt Berggren has said that a future update will ensure that after 14 days

          of no connectivity the software will revert to freeware mode, where it can

          be used as a reader on any designs, and hopefully allow generation of

          manufacturing data. Furthermore without paying anything you can use the

          freeware version, BUT you must get online after installation at least

          once.

           

          SO after installing or reinstalling Eagle (or if the license check fails

          due to system update) Eagle will apparently fail to start at all without an

          internet connection. As a compromise I would really like to see a true

          fallback, that will revert to freeware mode without ever having had any

          internet connection at all.

           

          This would be more robust and will have no effect on their current pricing

          scheme (it is freeware either way, why do you need an internet

          connection?). I would like to see some response from Matt on this.

           

          Oh and to be clear, I would gladly pay a premium for a real offline

          perpetual license. However I'm pretty sure Matt doesn't have the authority

          to offer this, because Autodesk has (I believe) moved all of their software

          to this subscription model, so I highly doubt they'd let him make an

          exception for Eagle.

          --

          EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

           

          • Re: Subscription model issues
            CadSoft Guest

            The discussion of issues is kind of superfluous. They already pointed

            out that their position is not negotiable. Whatever we discuss, it's not

            going to change anything.

             

            On the other hand, that is not necessarily the truth. They have already

            proven as being liars: They promised that it's not going subscription,

            but it is. They promised an upgrade path to V8 and there's none. They

            promised super exiting features and none. And what is new does not seem

            to work very well. I've lost all my good faith in autodesk.

             

            They also said that we will be "pleasantly surprised" by the new pricing

            scheme. Is this sarcasm or what is it? I had to pay something around 500

            EUR in the past for a transition to a new version. Now, I'm getting a

            one year subscription for that amount of money. When the year is over, I

            can't start new projects. All the money vanished in the void, you are

            required to pay again. And what will the pricing be one year from now?

            Did I mention that I don't trust them any longer?

             

            We are in 2017, a time with existing alternatives. I'm going to evaluate

            them in the foreseeable future.

             

            Was that real, less real or was it grumpy? It's real disappointment,

            that's for sure.

             

            Rene

             

             

              • Re: Subscription model issues
                CadSoft Guest

                On 20.01.2017 11:20, René König wrote:

                The discussion of issues is kind of superfluous. They already pointed

                out that their position is not negotiable. Whatever we discuss, it's not

                going to change anything.

                 

                We should not give up so easy.

                 

                On the other hand, that is not necessarily the truth. They have already

                proven as being liars: They promised that it's not going subscription,

                but it is. They promised an upgrade path to V8 and there's none. They

                promised super exiting features and none. And what is new does not seem

                to work very well. I've lost all my good faith in autodesk.

                 

                Yep.

                 

                 

                They also said that we will be "pleasantly surprised" by the new pricing

                scheme. Is this sarcasm or what is it? I had to pay something around 500

                EUR in the past for a transition to a new version. Now, I'm getting a

                one year subscription for that amount of money. When the year is over, I

                can't start new projects. All the money vanished in the void, you are

                required to pay again. And what will the pricing be one year from now?

                Did I mention that I don't trust them any longer?

                 

                We are in 2017, a time with existing alternatives. I'm going to evaluate

                them in the foreseeable future.

                 

                Was that real, less real or was it grumpy? It's real disappointment,

                that's for sure.

                 

                I'm also.

                 

                 

                • Re: Subscription model issues
                  CadSoft Guest

                  On 1/20/2017 5:20 AM, René König wrote:

                  > The discussion of issues is kind of superfluous. They already pointed

                  > out that their position is not negotiable. Whatever we discuss, it's not

                  > going to change anything.

                  >

                  > On the other hand, that is not necessarily the truth. They have already

                  > proven as being liars: They promised that it's not going subscription,

                  > but it is. They promised an upgrade path to V8 and there's none.

                  Hi Rene,

                   

                  There is an upgrade path to V8. All of your files still work and you

                  should have received an e-mail with a special pricing offer to move to

                  subscription. There isn't a perpetual license this is true, but there is

                  an upgrade path.

                  They

                  > promised super exiting features and none. And what is new does not seem

                  > to work very well.

                  The tone of this feels like you haven't tried it. The new routing engine

                  is extremely nice and set the base for push and shove in the future.

                  Designblocks works very well allowing you to turn pieces of your

                  schematic into effectively library parts.

                   

                  There's the BGA fanout router, pinsnapping in the schematic, slicing and

                  more stuff.

                   

                  If you have tried it, then I apologize for my assumption and would like

                  to know the issues you have run into. The pace of development is much

                  faster now so things are getting fixed quickly. Please let me know any

                  bugs you have run into.

                   

                  >

                  > They also said that we will be "pleasantly surprised" by the new pricing

                  > scheme.

                   

                  As the guy who said it, I can assure you it's not sarcasm. I thought the

                  monthly flexibility was pretty cool and over three years it's about the

                  price of a new license. With that said if you never upgraded then yes I

                  see your point.

                   

                  I can tell you one thing, all of these post are being seen by those who

                  can make decisions. Let's see what happens.

                   

                  Best Regards,

                  Jorge Garcia

                   

                   

                   

                  1 of 1 people found this helpful
                    • Re: Subscription model issues
                      CadSoft Guest

                      Jorge Garcia prodded the keyboard with:

                       

                      I can tell you one thing, all of these post are being seen by those

                      who can make decisions. Let's see what happens.

                       

                      Best Regards,

                      Jorge Garcia

                       

                      I disagree !  There are at least two other newsgroups discussing these

                      issues.

                       

                      --

                      Best Regards:

                                            Baron.

                       

                        • Re: Subscription model issues
                          CadSoft Guest

                          On 1/20/2017 4:18 PM, Baron wrote:

                          Jorge Garcia prodded the keyboard with:

                           

                          I can tell you one thing, all of these post are being seen by those

                          who can make decisions. Let's see what happens.

                           

                          Best Regards,

                          Jorge Garcia

                           

                          I disagree !  There are at least two other newsgroups discussing these

                          issues.

                           

                           

                          Hi Baron,

                           

                          With all do respect, I think you are in error. I'm keeping track of this

                          forum, the EEVblog forums, and the Autodesk forums.

                           

                          If I'm missing anything please let me know, since I would like to

                          participate on those as well and try to calm fears as best as I can.

                           

                          Just keep because we don't respond to every post doesn't mean we don't

                          see them and take them into account. You can imaging the amount of post

                          we are getting at this point in time.

                           

                          hth,

                          Best Regards,

                          Jorge Garcia

                           

                            • Re: Subscription model issues
                              CadSoft Guest

                              Jorge Garcia prodded the keyboard with:

                               

                              On 1/20/2017 4:18 PM, Baron wrote:

                              Jorge Garcia prodded the keyboard with:

                               

                              I can tell you one thing, all of these post are being seen by

                              those who can make decisions. Let's see what happens.

                               

                              Best Regards,

                              Jorge Garcia

                               

                              I disagree !  There are at least two other newsgroups discussing

                              these issues.

                               

                               

                              Hi Baron,

                               

                              With all do respect, I think you are in error. I'm keeping track of

                              this forum, the EEVblog forums, and the Autodesk forums.

                               

                              If I'm missing anything please let me know, since I would like to

                              participate on those as well and try to calm fears as best as I can.

                               

                              Just keep because we don't respond to every post doesn't mean we

                              don't see them and take them into account. You can imaging the

                              amount of post we are getting at this point in time.

                               

                              hth,

                              Best Regards,

                              Jorge Garcia

                               

                              I'd forgotten about the EEVblog forum.  Try sci.electronics.xxx

                              There may also be others...

                              --

                              Best Regards:

                                                    Baron.

                               

                          • Re: Subscription model issues
                            CadSoft Guest

                            Am 20.01.2017 um 20:07 schrieb Jorge Garcia:

                            As the guy who said it, I can assure you it's not sarcasm. I thought the

                            monthly flexibility was pretty cool and over three years it's about the

                            price of a new license. With that said if you never upgraded then yes I

                            see your point.

                             

                            You're really assuming that one did not make use of upgrade discounts

                            and always paid the full price over and over again?

                             

                            To be clear: I started with version 3.5 back in 1996. I paid for all

                            following major upgrades. The only missing version here is 7, for

                            obvious reasons. That means 10500 Euro if it had been subscription based

                            all the time.

                             

                            I paid significantly less. Now, as we are subscription based, I pay

                            nothing more at all. That's cheap. And it's still possible to start new

                            projects, wow!

                             

                            I can tell you one thing, all of these post are being seen by those who

                            can make decisions. Let's see what happens.

                             

                            There's nothing going to happen. What do you expect?

                             

                             

                            • Re: Subscription model issues
                              dukepro

                              On 01/20/2017 02:07 PM, Jorge Garcia wrote:

                               

                              They also said that we will be "pleasantly surprised" by the new

                              pricing

                              scheme.

                               

                              As the guy who said it, I can assure you it's not sarcasm. I thought

                              the monthly flexibility was pretty cool and over three years it's

                              about the price of a new license. With that said if you never upgraded

                              then yes I see your point.

                               

                              Jorge,

                               

                              I'm sure you didn't intend for the pricing to be sarcastic.  It seems

                              like Autodesk may have misled you to some extent in order for you to

                              come to the conclusion of "pleasantly surprised".  Below is an excerpt

                              from my response to Matt (emphasis added):

                               

                                  The only example you could present where this subscription based

                                  license will save the customer money is for a part time Eagle user.

                                  Look at it this way...

                               

                                  In the last 4-1/2 years, I spent about $1000 to upgrade a 3-user

                                  Professional license from v5 to v6, and to v7. Based on the current

                                  pricing of $500 per user per year, the equivalent 3-user Ultimate

                                  license will now cost $6,750 for 4-1/2 years.

                               

                                  Matt, help me to understand how the total cost of ownership is now

                                  lower than what it was?

                               

                              You may have been referring to the first-time purchasers - an audience

                              that is unlikely to be monitoring this newsgroup.

                               

                              Best regards,

                                  - Chuck