18 Replies Latest reply on Jan 9, 2018 4:01 AM by

    Incorrect operation of power button on Desktop Pi

    johnvansomeren

      I have installed my RPi 3 inside the Destop Pi case and I like it. However, it doesn't work as advertised. The symptoms described here are identical whichever of my two RPi 3 computers I use. Therefore I am assuming the fault is wth the electronics supplied with the Desktop Pi.

       

      The board's battery is about 3.3 volts and the software installed with no apparent errors.

       

      Start with the RPi running and with the blue light on and steady.

      1. Pressing the power button for 2 seconds results in the power being turned off. As expected.
      2. After a short rest, a single press to the power button does nothing. Problem.
      3. After a short rest, a second single press does nothing. Same problem.
      4. After a short rest, a five second press does nothing, but now a single short press turns on the power.
      5. If I select Shutdown (or use sudo shutdown -h now) the Desktop Pi's blue light flashes for maybe 15 or 20 seconds before turning itself off. I can turn it off earlier by pressing the power button for 5 seconds. Is this expected?
      6. However, whatever I do, it is back to step 2 above omce the blue light has gone out.

      Everything else looks fine. Using 'reboot' on the RPi works as advertised: eg the blue light flashes until the re-boot has started. Then it goes out and comes back on a few seconds later.

       

      Occasionally the above goes a bit haywire. However, a 5-second press on the power button (occasionally you have to do it twice) brings you back to step 5 above.

       

      I believe I have a fault with the HAT board that came with the Desktop PI. What do I need to do now? To whom do I report this?

       

      Thanks in advance. I just hope that Element 14 looks at these forums (fora?) from time to time.

        • Re: Incorrect operation of power button on Desktop Pi
          e14phil

          Hi John

           

          Have you checked the user manual and FAQs on the product page:

          https://www.element14.com/community/docs/DOC-83477/l/desktop-computer-kit-with-expansion-board-that-can-turn-a-raspberry…

           

          And most importantly have you installed the Pi Desktop Debian Package:

          https://github.com/pi-desktop/deb-make/releases

          3 of 3 people found this helpful
            • Re: Incorrect operation of power button on Desktop Pi

              Yes and yes. Please don't assume that only you read the manuals and follow instructions.

                • Re: Incorrect operation of power button on Desktop Pi
                  Jan Cumps

                  Guest wrote:

                   

                  Yes and yes. Please don't assume that only you read the manuals and follow instructions.

                  What a rude answer on a proper post

                  3 of 3 people found this helpful
                  • Re: Incorrect operation of power button on Desktop Pi
                    e14phil

                    Hi John

                     

                    I didn't think you would take offence to being directed to the proper support documents when posting in the support area.

                    For your information, The Pi Desktop packages have previously been patched and the current instructions provide you with a working product so it is only reasonable to ask if you had made sure you had the correct packages.

                     

                    If it is not working I would highly recommend checking your connections, checking that it is powered correctly and starting fresh.

                     

                    Phil

                    1 of 1 people found this helpful
                      • Re: Incorrect operation of power button on Desktop Pi
                        mcb1

                        e14phil

                        It's quite interesting at work.

                        We often have written proceedures/instructions to do tasks on our various systems.

                         

                        During the establishment of these, out of the 17 of us, there is only one that properly follows the proceedure/instruction as he doesn't skip, assume, or 'not read' the damn things.

                         

                        Needless to say if you want something checked, you give to him to try and then fix all the things you missed ...

                         

                        It's quite interesting how the human mind can fill in the blanks, or decide xyz is not relevant ...

                        Mark

                          • Re: Incorrect operation of power button on Desktop Pi
                            shabaz

                            There was a comment somewhere that the majority of Pi's returned have basic issues like the user didn't transfer the software image correctly onto the microSD and so on. There are always users who say "I've tried everything but it doesn't work" but "everything" is an exaggeration.

                             

                            It is a very interesting observation that the human mind can decide things are not relevant when testing or troubleshooting. It is possibly one of the best lessons for any engineer, including software and hardware. Ignoring any small observation will often come back to bite the engineer. The occasional software glitch ignored for instance, will come back and bite one when thousands of users are deploying it, or it has been running for a few weeks or months or results in a knock-on effect : ) It is the easiest way to identify an engineer with or without experience, to see what they do when the tiniest of symptoms shows up even when it looks benign.

                            1 of 1 people found this helpful
                              • Re: Incorrect operation of power button on Desktop Pi
                                mcb1

                                shabaz

                                 

                                to see what they do when the tiniest of symptoms shows up even when it looks benign.

                                I've seen some software that was tested by the creaters and then let loose onto users, only to find a bug (or three).

                                 

                                The usual response is "...We didn't expect them to press that..." or " .. why would you do that? the software says do ...."

                                Having the creaters do the final testing is asking for disaster IMO.

                                 

                                 

                                 

                                Mark

                                  • Re: Incorrect operation of power button on Desktop Pi
                                    neilk

                                    mcb1 I couldn't agree more!

                                     

                                    However, I have to say that sometimes the user will do something totally stupid, and completely outside of the software creator's viewpoint:

                                     

                                    Many years ago I was creating software for systems running the cp/m operating system, with twin 5.25" floppy drives (so guess how long ago that was!). Routine operation of one package required a floppy disk change part way through the process. One day, after several months of trouble free operation, I received a call from the user to report a problem. Telephone diagnostic didn't work, so a short walk across the campus allowed me to investigate in person.

                                     

                                    I looked at the screen and saw an error message (I can't remember the detail) the gist of which was a READ error on one of the floppy drives, I looked at the drive and saw that the door was open. I closed the door, pressed the return key and the process continued.

                                     

                                    The user then said "Well I knew it wasn't going to be in there very long so I didn't think it was worth closing the door"

                                     

                                    Suffice to say I was at a loss for a reply. I did, however, update all documentation pertaining to floppy disk based systems, to include the instruction(s) "Close the drive door", wherever it was appropriate!

                                     

                                    We never stop learning.

                                     

                                    Neil

                                    3 of 3 people found this helpful
                                  • Re: Incorrect operation of power button on Desktop Pi
                                    Christopher Stanton

                                    shabaz  wrote:

                                     

                                    There was a comment somewhere that the majority of Pi's returned have basic issues like the user didn't transfer the software image correctly onto the microSD and so on. There are always users who say "I've tried everything but it doesn't work" but "everything" is an exaggeration.

                                     

                                     

                                    When it comes to SDCards I can entirely believe someone that they have genuinely followed the instructions, done everything right, and discovered that the SDCard hasn't been written properly, even though it's reported that it has.

                                     

                                    SDCard controllers are the worst, followed only by the way Microsoft Windows handles referencing to them, are they a removable drive? Are they a static drive? Where's the partition table? Does it refer to them by hardware reference, or purely drive letter?

                                     

                                    You can encounter every possible issue when it comes to SDCards, from the controller driver bluescreening your computer to Win32DiskImager deciding there's not enough space to write an 8gB image to your SDCard because all it can see is the some-hundred-megabyte FAT32 boot partition of a Raspbian formatted SDCard on the drive letter 'E:'.

                                     

                                    Often I weigh up the pro's and con's to operating systems, and these days I choose the 'right one for the right job' and when it comes to SDCards, it's posix/linux commands every time. 'dd' while being slow, typically, is so beautifully low level, it doesn't care, and you can write whatever you like directly to the file descriptor for the SDCard.

                                     

                                    This terrible way in which the Windows OS and software written for it, and disk partitioning, handles a seemingly simple piece of hardware, is what I consider to be the majority issue for people with Raspberry Pi's, you can do everything right, and it still gets it so very wrong, especially if you don't dismount it properly and then your filesystem's marked as unclean. That can stop a Pi booting straight away, and on some systems, trying to eject your SDCard, actually unmounts the SDCard reader hardware driver itself, forcing you to reinstall the driver or reboot.

                                     

                                    It's reasons like this that I personally have all the time and patience for people that have problems with the Pi and SDCards that say they've tried everything, because I've been there too, and I'm sure it's easy to forget that we all have at some point.

                                      • Re: Incorrect operation of power button on Desktop Pi
                                        shabaz

                                        Hi Christopher,

                                         

                                        I think it helps gauge that we can't assume there is a hardware fault despite the  belief of someone who states they have tried everything - simply because there is a high chance that something has been missed in the documentation, or some symptom has been put to the back of the mind and not expressed. This I believe is true because of the reports we hear that many returns are often not faulty, and are due to things like the difficult-to-get-right SD card (this was just an example, this doesn't apply to the original poster since he actually has shell access according to his comments).

                                         

                                        The user who says they have tried everything is likely not an experienced engineer (this is again not necessarily relevant to the original poster, more just an observation of how to gauge the experience of an engineer by watching what occurs when glitches/rare symptoms appear).

                                         

                                        To be honest we're I think extremely good at spotting experience level in this field, especially since the Pi is intended for beginners, and directing toward content like Magpi or other newcomer information (hate the word noob that other forums seem to love using).

                                        It would be awful to see the scenario where it is clear the question comes from a computing/engineering beginner, yet the response is cryptic even if it is technically correct. I've seen that a lot on other forums, thankfully not here.

                                         

                                        The SD card issue is a pain, and depressing that after so many years, the documentation is still a little unclear, so others have written their own guides to supplement it. Personally I'd add a a few more popular things to the pile, such as the 5V supply (it is tempting to use any phone charger, especially when you don't know what '500mA' or '2.5A' means - is higher better? Is 500mA higher than 2.5A?. That's not just youngsters, any non-electrical/electronics person is going to struggle with that.

                                        Every day I get queries (for example) on power supply related issues in my line of work - for example questions related to surge current, what does 85-264V mean and so on - but these are queries from highly technical people except that electrical/electronic engineering is not their expert field - they are experts in other fields.

                                        1 of 1 people found this helpful
                                        • Re: Incorrect operation of power button on Desktop Pi
                                          mcb1

                                          Strangely I've never had any issues with SD and uSD cards for the RPi.

                                          If you follow the instructions and format it as they say, then load the images using Win32DiskImager ... again following the instructions.

                                           

                                          I do agree that Windows has some very strange behaviour regarding removable drives, and sometimes is unable to decide, but that is often down to the driver and what it thinks the device is.

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                          What I do find a little frustrating is that there is very good help available on the Pi website.

                                          The downloads page links to how to load images, and they have changed to using Etcher, which does the formatting and loading of the image onto the SD card.

                                           

                                          The documentation is a little sparse (given you have novices and confusion about a process that you're new to, but MagPi has clarified it

                                          https://www.raspberrypi.org/magpi/pi-sd-etcher/

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                          The search engine for element14 doesn't deliver a good result (sadly in IMO) for various reasons.

                                          All too often we have become the OP's search engine for them, and provided links that in reality could be discovered by most ...

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                          Mark

                                            • Re: Incorrect operation of power button on Desktop Pi
                                              shabaz

                                              I don't know I feel not only is their documentation sparse, it is inconsistent too. At one place they say use a 2A supply for all models, and elsewhere they specify a different recommendation of 2.5A for the Pi 3 and 1.2-2A for the other models. Their Xmas blog post is even looser with the specification. If we can spot these inconsistencies, imagine how frustrating it is for newcomers. Also, the documentation assumes people know that where current capability of a power supply is concerned, higher is OK, and lower is not ok. "2A" means nothing to a non-expert.

                                               

                                              Given the thousands? of queries and comments here over the years, and the popularity of hits to the Pi help-style blogs here (hundreds of thousands of page views for some items), I'm sure forums such as these, and efforts from all of us have saved them millions of $$$ in support staff - just a few staff a year would have cost such sums.

                                               

                                              Magpi and other resources I'm sure also help, but the sparsity of official documentation on their site is something they should fix, and weed out the inconsistencies too. The least they could do is make a bit more effort.

                                              1 of 1 people found this helpful
                                                • Re: Incorrect operation of power button on Desktop Pi
                                                  mcb1

                                                  shabaz

                                                  At one place they say use a 2A supply for all models, and elsewhere they specify a different recommendation of 2.5A for the Pi 3

                                                  Not a good look ... luckily I've never seen those pages ....

                                                   

                                                   

                                                  Power and RPi has always been a joke.

                                                  The use of a charger designed to top up a 3.6v lithium battery to power a 5v device is probably the worst engineering decision made, and is reinfoced by the change to a switching regulator on later Pi's.

                                                   

                                                   

                                                  That said .... as the major supplier of RPi, the Farnell Group could have been a little more proactive and user friendly and provided a great site to answer all their customers queries.

                                                  Using an Engineering Forum as the means to answer questions is not the best solution IMO.

                                                   

                                                   

                                                  Mark

                                                   

                                                   

                                                  .

                                                    • Re: Incorrect operation of power button on Desktop Pi
                                                      shabaz

                                                      I think some things are solely in the control of raspberrypi.org, like cryptic rainbow indicators when a basic low-res symbol would have been better etc, blog and documentation errors/inconsistencies on the official raspberrypi.org site. We've seen extensive videos and documentation by element14 staff here, and from us too, and since we use the devices intensively, we are well-placed to help both experienced and newcomers to the field, and everyone benefits. People get high-quality responses, so there is high competence, and everyone gets useful resources over the years as problems are solved and handy articles, and discussions and responses and blogs are written.

                                                       

                                                      It would be nice for someone senior from raspberrypi.org to have had the inclination at some point over the past five years to reach out to the community here and offered their support or asked how things could be improved from their end, or asked for pre-release feedback on some of their odd decisions like the power supply and UART in Pi 3 - but they have not. Even though they would get high-quality responses too It might not be what they want to hear, but it would be accurate given what we've all seen.

                                                       

                                                      Anyway, I'm done with my whinging and complaining for today : )

                                                  • Re: Incorrect operation of power button on Desktop Pi
                                                    gadget.iom

                                                    mcb1  wrote:

                                                     

                                                    The search engine for element14 doesn't deliver a good result (sadly in IMO) for various reasons.

                                                    All too often we have become the OP's search engine for them, and provided links that in reality could be discovered by most ...

                                                    I'll agree with that. It's often easier to find the content through a google search.

                                      • Re: Incorrect operation of power button on Desktop Pi
                                        Christopher Stanton

                                        johnvansomeren  wrote:

                                         

                                        What do I need to do now? To whom do I report this?

                                         

                                         

                                        Hi John,

                                         

                                        Sorry that you're experiencing this problem. As you may appreciate there are many lines of inquiry we can go down to try to determine the cause, and this forum may not be the best place for it. So instead I am going to directly answer the questions I have quoted here.

                                         

                                        Staff from the online store / transactional side's technical support do not frequent the forum, however element14 Community staff such as myself do and I can only help direct you to the correct place to get the support or resolution that can be given to you.

                                         

                                        You'll want to get in touch with the online store's technical support, if you click here you should be forwarded to the 'help centre' on the online store. If you click here, you can find the contact-us details for the online store.

                                         

                                        On the help centre link you should see a button for 'Live Agent' around the top right of the page, you should get through to technical support this way, and there are other contact methods also on the page.

                                         

                                        Also, you can raise an 'issue' on the Pi-Desktop github repository. However, I would suggest at least getting in touch via the help centre and contact us links.

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