14 Replies Latest reply on Apr 10, 2018 7:09 AM by e14softwareuk

    Net length is wrong (vias isn't taken into account)

    a.stepanov

      Hi!

       

      Routed length calculation is wrong (vias height does not taken into account).
      CS version is 1.4.1 build 99.
      When it will be fixed ?

       

      Thanks!

        • Re: Net length is wrong (vias isn't taken into account)
          voltsandjolts

          To match a diff pair you should be using the same number of vias in _P and _N and thus via length is of no consequence.

            • Re: Net length is wrong (vias isn't taken into account)
              a.stepanov

              Thanks for the reply.

               

              Sure! This is just an example.

               

              Real problem is observed when I need to match differential pair length to data bus as well as route all signals inside data bus.

                • Re: Net length is wrong (vias isn't taken into account)
                  voltsandjolts

                  In that case, you will need to manually add up via lengths which is non-trivial for more complex stack-ups. Or pony up several thousand dollars and upgrade to Designer.

                   

                  Altium decided to leave the via length feature out of CS, which seems fair enough to me for its target market and cost.

                    • Re: Net length is wrong (vias isn't taken into account)
                      a.stepanov

                      Are you seriously ?

                      If so, I'm can't agree with you.

                      When we are talking about trace matching tool, yes, this is a "feature" available in more expensive package.

                      But when net length is showed without simple distance between layers this is just a "bug".

                        • Re: Net length is wrong (vias isn't taken into account)
                          voltsandjolts

                          Yes, absolutely serious.

                          The target market for CS is where via length is unimportant or is at least trivial to manually calculate.

                          How many hundred MHz is your design operating at and who are you using to manufacture your controlled impedance boards? Doesn't sound like entry level PCB design to me.

                            • Re: Net length is wrong (vias isn't taken into account)
                              a.stepanov

                              Good product should have balance of available features.

                              CS has net classes, diff pair routing, multilayer stack-up, but on other hand simple via length does not automatically calculated.

                              More expensive products like Altium have much more other usefull features.

                              Via length is not feature nowadays. It is one of  "must have" options today.

                              • Re: Net length is wrong (vias isn't taken into account)
                                mars01

                                Hi,

                                a.stepanov has a good point.

                                CircuitStudio was marketed as a tool for professionals, isn't it? What's the point in buying a software tool if what you are saying is that the resulted PCB should be on the level with those drawn by hand on, let's say Inkscape?

                                Showing incomplete data seems a bug for me, too, regardless of the complexity of the design. Either you show it correctly or don't do it at all, otherwise it's misleading.

                                  • Re: Net length is wrong (vias isn't taken into account)
                                    e14softwareuk

                                    For a tool to be "professional" does not mean that it has to have every possible feature, both CircuitStudio and Altium Designer are professional tools but aimed at different markets and types of design. I think Keven in correct in that for serious high speed design work you would want to trade up to Altium Designer which has far more tools available to address the sort of design issues that will be encountered. Don't forget that Altium have a special offer for CS users whereby they can get a discount on AD equal to what they paid for CS and you get to keep your CS license. If you are adding vias to critical high speed nets then you would most likely want to add the same number of vias to each net otherwise impedance and propagation delays won't necessarily match regardless of net lengths.

                                      • Re: Net length is wrong (vias isn't taken into account)
                                        mars01

                                        Point taken but, as an engineer, you know that there is a difference between "equal" and "approximate"...

                                        My previous answer was also in regards of the affirmation "entry level PCB design". In my opinion one such package is the like of Fritzing or Express PCB and others on that level.

                                        For sure CircuitStudio is not such a tool and it may also not be high-end but there are some expectations (within certain limits as you pointed out). One of them is accuracy of the provided data.

                                        • Re: Net length is wrong (vias isn't taken into account)
                                          a.stepanov

                                          Could you share any details about special offer for CS users ?

                                          Is it comparable to CS price when it was 3k or 0.5k as now ?

                                           

                                          In any case I'm able to finish current routing with manual length calculation.

                                           

                                           

                                          P.S.

                                          It looks like "dirty" marketing.

                                           

                                          Before buy: "Hey, look! CS is able to do routing with accordions! So it is suitable for high speed a little bit."
                                          https://www.element14.com/community/community/manufacturers/altium/blog/2017/07/27/circuitstudio-routing-with-accordions

                                           

                                          After buy: "High speed in CS? Not heard about it."

                                           

                                          It is sad..

                                            • Re: Net length is wrong (vias isn't taken into account)
                                              mars01

                                              a.stepanov, regarding your PS. Let's be fair and not vent our frustration on others ... one thing is to report a bug (reported net length is not the correct net length but an approximation) and one other is to accuse of 'dirty marketing'.

                                               

                                              From Peter's activity we can see that he is very dedicated to what he's doing. He is also one of the best customer support I've seen in this field.

                                              He does want us to benefit and get the maximum out of this software so this is how those articles got published. Not marketing but trying to help.

                                               

                                              Those articles I think they are in a sort of gray area, even the guys from Altium I don't think they know how to position.

                                              There is a lot of functionality that was not exposed into GUI, one can even create his own shortcuts by editing certain files ... And it's Peter's merit that he's gone public, showing that there is hidden functionality in CS and that one can try to get results comparable (but not quite there) to some of the results from higher end packages.

                                              Functions that were not meant for CS, as previously mentioned.

                                               

                                               

                                              {I think that the whole thing started as an idea to get the Eagle market once it's gone subscription. Whoever at Altium had the idea was inspired but I don't think he's got the right team to implement and I mean, his team lacked the strategic research. They rushed this out without thinking too much on what will follow. What we see it's a lack of coordination between marketing and sales/support, coupled with not having developers available for further development of CircuitStudio.

                                              We can also see, and it's not fair, that CircuitStudio development is being frozen for an unknown period of time.}

                                                • Re: Net length is wrong (vias isn't taken into account)
                                                  a.stepanov

                                                  Yes, I agree. I don't want offend Peter in any kind.

                                                  His blog's share many useful CS tricks to folk.

                                                  If it looks like, I'm apologies to Peter.

                                                    • Re: Net length is wrong (vias isn't taken into account)
                                                      e14softwareuk

                                                      Hey Anton, no need to apologise as it's all part of trying to offer tech support. It's really gratifying to read that people are finding the articles and answers useful. I appreciate there are rough edges to the product and know it can lead to frustration at times especially when it gets in the way of doing your job. I have been involved in PCB design on and off since the 80's and from experience can see that CS is a great value product provided it suits the types of designs you undertake. It isn't Altium Designer but compared with what CAD systems have historically cost it can be viewed as something of a bargain. Marius, you are correct in that dissatisfied Eagle users are a definite target market, given you can purchase CS for less than one year of Eagle Premium it is very tempting for many people. My understanding is that development of the next version is underway but it is a much slower release cycle than everyone would like, however the good news is there are very few bugs that genuinely get in the way of being able to produce those PCB layouts.